Helping Your Children Deal with Grief from the Divorce with Sara Hadgraft
Meet Sara Hadgraft
Pete’s out with Covid this week so Seth’s flying solo, but it was an important conversation we wanted to get out to you. Seth talks with Sara Hadgraft from Sparrow Counseling. She’s a licensed marriage and family therapist and a licensed professional counselor who guides families through the pain and disappointment of divorce. It’s a difficult process, but it’s important to learn how to talk to your kids so they don’t feel that it’s there fault that you’re getting divorced.
Sara has a list – “7 WAYS TO HELP YOUR CHILDREN GRIEVE YOUR DIVORCE” – that Seth references. These points are important tools you can use as you talk with your own children. What’s more important to realize, though, is that every kid is different. Every family is different. They all require you to do the work to figure out how to help each one.
That’s also important to remember – you will handle your four-year-old differently than your 11-year-old differently than your 17-year-old. And it’s also not a quick fix. This is help you’ll be providing for years as they grow up and become adults.
So tune in to this conversation. There’s a lot of helpful information in here that you can use as you create those conversations with your children about your own divorce.
Links & Notes
Sara’s Blog: “7 WAYS TO HELP YOUR CHILDREN GRIEVE YOUR DIVORCE”
Sara’s Blog: “10 TIPS FOR COPARENTS FROM A COPARENTING COUNSELOR”
Sara and Sparrow Counseling on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube
Got a question you want to ask on the show? Click here!
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Seth Nelson:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. Today, your toaster needs to talk to the kids.
Welcome to the show everybody. I'm Seth Nelson. And unfortunately today I'm flying solo because Pete is out with COVID. He'll be back before we know it, but we wanted to move forward with today's conversation because it's one we feel is very important. We've talked a lot about how to deal with parenting plans, finances, and more when it even comes to kids during divorce, but how do you help your kids when the divorce hits them emotionally?Today, we're talking with Sara Hadgraft, a licensed marriage and family therapist and licensed professional counselor in Birmingham, Alabama, where she guides family through the pain and disappointment of divorce. Sara, welcome to the Toaster.
Sara Hadgraft:
Thanks. I'm excited to be here.
Seth Nelson:
Well, as I told you before the show started, I am so excited to be talking to you. But this is a lose-lose for me today because Pete's not here. So if we don't get our typical, huge downloads, he's going to be, "Seth, because I wasn't here." And when we exceed the best downloads we've ever had, he's going to say, "Because Sara was awesome." So at least that's-
Sara Hadgraft:
No win.
Seth Nelson:
It's the no win, but it's a win for the listeners because they've got you to talk to us about how you talk to the kids. Because from a lawyer's perspective, I've done a lot of stuff of like, "Hey, this is what you should do. Don't say this. Don't do that." We've even had a people on the show where people write in to say, "Look, I listened to what you said, Seth. It actually worked." And Pete hates that when people give me compliments. But to actually talk to a mental health professional solely focusing today on how do we talk to the kids, and of course, whatever else comes up. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us how you got to where you are and tell us how we can help actually have these difficult conversations with our kids.
Sara Hadgraft:
All right. Well, I am, like you said, a licensed marriage and family therapist and a licensed professional counselor. I really got to where I am because I went through the transition of divorce in 2012. When that happened, I went back to school to get my marriage and family therapy license, which I always think is interesting, going through a divorce and then becoming a marriage and family therapist. But I did because I felt like I knew a lot about relationships and learned a lot. When I was going through graduate school, I was studying children of divorce. Every project, every paper was on them because I wanted to help my kids move through this transition in the best possible way. What I learned is that communication between co-parents and limiting parental conflict is the number one way to help children.
And when I started looking at the mental health field and what's out there to help co-parents, it was just limited. There just wasn't a lot of people that want to go from mental health professionals that want to go into helping co-parents. And I will tell you it's because it's litigious. The family lawyers tend to scare mental health professionals.
Seth Nelson:
That's it. Pete would love this. Pete would love this. You're blaming the lawyers. Nice job.
Sara Hadgraft:
Well, there are some really great lawyers. And we need lawyers because they're advocates, especially during the time of divorce when you feel so vulnerable. But you know as well as I do there are lawyers that want to make a buck and want to keep the conflict going so that they can make more money. And that just hurts the kids.
Seth Nelson:
It's easy to stir the pot.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
Right. So you're on this journey. You say, "Look, there isn't a lot out there where mental health individuals want to actually help people stay away from conflict and to talk to their kids."
Sara Hadgraft:
Right. Right.
Seth Nelson:
So now when we say talk to kids, this question's just right in my head up front and so I want to kind of get right to it.
Sara Hadgraft:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Kids are different ages.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Do you have conversations or do you deal with these difficult conversations with kids in different age groups like toddler or preteen, tween, teenagers? Do you kind of put it in those categories?
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think that you have to look at the different age groups to see what they're able to handle. A two year old can't handle as much as a 12 year old. But I think that often kids want things simple. Kids are a lot like people. They're selfish in that they just want to know, "How is this going to impact my life? How is my schedule going to change?" I think kids that are a little bit older, maybe in the teen range or a little preteen, may understand what this means in terms of their family no longer being there. But I think that it's an ongoing conversation. It's not just one conversation. I often say like even when we have conversations about sex with our kids, we can't just have one. We have to have multiple conversations and then-
Seth Nelson:
Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. So I was supposed to have conversations with sex with my child who's now 18? Have I missed that boat, is that what you [inaudible 00:05:29]?
Sara Hadgraft:
Oh hell yeah, you have.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. I'm going to text his mom and say I hope she did it.
Sara Hadgraft:
I'm sure she did. So. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a multiple conversations that you have over a lifetime because as they grow, they grieve different things. So like an elementary school child may grieve that dad's not dropping him off to school, but mom is. And the middle school child may grieve more of the open house or how the game schedule is going and when mom and dad are coming in and when they're not able to be there. But every time a child has to go to one parent's house, they have to give up the other parent. And that is something that is something to grieve. That is hard to adjust to. So it's a process, I think.
Seth Nelson:
That's a really good point. I know I've talked about this on the show before. When my son was very little, as the listeners know, he was just two and a half when we got divorced. He was grieving when he would be at my house because he missed his mom. And then he was grieving when he was at her house because he missed me. And we had this conversation and I said, "Well, I miss you when you're at mommy's. And I'm also really happy that you're spending quality time with mom. When you're with mom, I think it's a good idea for you to be happy to be spending time with mom. And when you're with me, you can be happy you spend time with me. So you can be there happy all the time or you can be sad all the time because you're missing the other parent. Do you want to be happy all the time or sad all the time?" He was very little and he said, "I want to be happy all the time." I said, "Well then, let's try to work on that."
I called his mom after he went to bed that night and she was like, "Hey, what's up?" And I said, "Look, here's the conversation I had." And she said to me, "Oh my God, I'm so glad you called because it breaks my heart when he's here and he's telling me how much he misses you. I love it that he misses you, but I want him to be happy and have fun." And here I am. "I miss you too. Let's go have fun. Let's not..." Doing this. So how can you help... Look, I got lucky.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
I thought of that at the moment. I said it. I'm not saying I'm some great parent. I got lucky. But what do you talk about with kids when they're grieving the loss of the other parent when it's just a loss for a day, two days, a weekend, a week? How do you have that conversation?
Sara Hadgraft:
I come from the place of, I think it's okay for them to be sad and to grieve. There are things in life that are sad. Now, I wouldn't want them laying in bed and they couldn't get out of bed or pitching a fit and they couldn't get beyond that. But I'd also want to acknowledge that, yeah, this is a sad process. But I often say, and I said this to my girls, everybody's going through sadness. There is no life that doesn't go through pain. And so I think getting comfortable and helping our kids understand that life isn't going to be happy all the time, but there will be happy moments. That's a coping skill I think that you're giving your son is, "What does it look like to move past my sadness and to carry my sadness, but still enjoy my life?" And even adults don't know how to do that, but it's a skill that I think as parents we can model for our children.
Seth Nelson:
I have a theory on happiness because we say we all just want to be happy. If Pete was here and you disagreed with me, he would love this if you disagreed. But here's my view on happiness, and I can be wrong on this.
Sara Hadgraft:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
I think it's a mistake for us to say, "Well I just want my kid to be happy," or "I just want to be happy," because I think that's an emotion. And if you're at a funeral and you're happy, you could be a psychopath.
Sara Hadgraft:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
Like, "What's going on here?", right? So is there another word that we can use other than, "I just want to be happy"? Is, "I can be content. I can be engaged. I can be mindful. I can be deliberate. I can have meaningful relationships"... What other word, if any, can we say instead of happy? Or am I just off on the wrong path there?
Sara Hadgraft:
I don't think you're off on the wrong path. I think you're right, though with a two and a half year old, happy they understand. He grabbed onto that. So that was a good word for him. But as he grows, then you give him more feeling words. Like if you think about anger, anger is just the tip of the emotion. Underneath anger is so many other emotions. So that's where I think counseling can be really powerful with kids and adults, is it helps people learn what they're feeling and how to articulate what they're feeling. Because when they can articulate what they're feeling, then they can ask for what they need. And that's the power of counseling.
Seth Nelson:
Well, that's such a great point. I think it's hard for people to do that even as adults.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yep.
Seth Nelson:
It's almost like describing a bottle of wine, right? We all can say whether it's red or white, because you can see it, but the wine tastes different. People then have to create all these words that I never understand, right? It's smooth, heavy finish, [inaudible 00:10:48], all this stuff because they're trying to describe the taste, but different people will even taste it differently. I think that's much like our emotions. We all feel stuff, but how do we describe it? And then how do we describe it in a way that's not offensive to the person that we're discussing it with? Maybe we have to describe it in ourselves and then figure that out. And then how do I explain it to the other?
Sara Hadgraft:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
So it's like I got to taste the wine, "Hmm. This is what it tastes like to me. I have it in my own mind now, but are the words I'm saying going to be meaningful to the other person?"
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
What do you say to a teenager?
Sara Hadgraft:
Well, if you think about that with divorce, and I use the metaphor like there's a courtyard, and if you put divorce in the courtyard and the family is looking around from different rooms onto the courtyard of the event of divorce, everyone has a different perspective. So for one child, it may be a relief. And for the other child, they may experience a lot of pain. I think for teenagers, I think it's still keep it simple. I think there are teenagers out there that want a lot of information. And I don't always think it's good.
Seth Nelson:
"Why? Why? Why are you getting divorced?"
Sara Hadgraft:
Right. And what I recommend for my co-parents to answer that question is, "Look guys, I don't want to put you in a position to be a judge. Because if I tell you my perspective, this is my truth and your dad or your mom are going to have their perspective and their truth and then you have to judge who's right and who's wrong. I don't want to put you in that position. What I want to put you in the position of is we love you and you don't have to know the ins and outs of our relationship." And if you think about life, there's a lot of mystery in life. So I think it's actually good for our kids to live in some mystery that they don't have to have all the answers and they don't have to know everything.
Seth Nelson:
Well, I think it's really interesting the way you took that answer, which I've never heard it explained that way in all my years to make it about the child. Most parents will say, "No, those are adult conversations. You don't need to know about them." What you're saying is, "I don't want to put you in the position of trying to figure out whose fault this is."
Sara Hadgraft:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
"That's not your job."
Sara Hadgraft:
You think about elementary and preteen, they're very black and white, so right and wrong makes a lot of sense to them. It makes a lot of sense.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. They don't really get. There's different perspectives.
Sara Hadgraft:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
So now you're having this conversation. They're grieving. You're helping them through that grief. You're giving them different words to describe it. You have the conversation, they ask you why. You say, "Look, I don't want to make you the judge." But then they're talking to you. How do you not judge what they're saying? How do I not be defensive when they start coming at me?
Sara Hadgraft:
Well, first of all, when you have the conversation, I really think it's important that both parents are there and that both parents have a shared narrative that they're willing to say, "This is what happened and this is why we're doing this." It doesn't have to be detailed. What I'm not a fan of is when one parent tells the child without the other parent there. So-
Seth Nelson:
And when you say have a narrative in about what happened, we're not really getting into the what too much. We're like, "Hey, we've made this decision." And I advise clients, and I'd like your input on this, is, mom and dads don't get divorced. Moms and moms don't get divorce. Dads and dads don't get divorced. Married couples get divorced. Husbands and wives, husbands and husbands, wives and wives. But nowhere when a little kid draws a picture do they put brother, sister, husband, wife. They put mom, dad or whatever it is. So I advise to use those words because it kind of takes it out of their family unit even though we're talking about the same people.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah. Yeah. And what you're doing there is you're saying spousal love and parental love are two different things. They're not the same. But I will tell you there are a lot of parents that don't get that either. They think that because they're a terrible spouse, they will be a terrible parent. And that's a lot of my work is, look, it can't be the same relationship. We have to give your co-parent a chance to prove themselves as a good parent.
Seth Nelson:
So when the kids are talking to you about what's going on with them, it's really easy to get defensive and judgemental. How do you kind of check your ego on that?
Sara Hadgraft:
Well, I just walked a couple through this. One of my recommendations was to say, "Hey guys, those are great questions. But any questions in regards to what's going on with our family, because we'll always be a family, a divorce is just a piece of paper, the family will always remain, those questions need to come before dad and I." And we will answer those questions together because I really want to say from the beginning that we have to be on the same page. So kids may have to wait for an answer. In terms of dealing with your own defensiveness, that's really hard. I'm just going to say you're going to mess up. You are going to mess it up because you're human. I mean, it is hard. It is triggering everything in you. Your co-parent I think is probably the most difficult person on the planet. But what I will often say to my co-parents is this, "You're modeling for your kids how to handle a difficult person. What do you want to model for your kids in that?"
Seth Nelson:
Right. That's a good point. Even if you don't say it that way, because we don't want to say the other spouse, so the other parent is difficult. Ultimately, you're teaching them a skill. And ultimately the kids figure it out because they have a relationship with you and they have a relationship with their other parent and they know what difficulties they have within these relationships. Throwing kind of fuel on the fire doesn't help that when they're going to figure it out eventually.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
I kind of state that emphatically all the time. I would say, ""Oh, kids will figure it out." Is that true?
Sara Hadgraft:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
Or do sometimes there's so much polluting by one parent that they never really got the chance? Because I deal with some people that are in their 70s and 80s and they're like, "Yeah, no I'm estranged because we got divorced." They kind of blame it on the other spouse. I wasn't there 10, 20, 30 years ago. So do they really figure it out?
Sara Hadgraft:
Well, I mean, I think you make a good point. I think there are some co-parents that just can't let go and that use their kids as a weapon and the kids take the hit. I think it's possible, yes. I think the majority of kids, as they walk through life, will begin to see what kind of parent their parents are.
Seth Nelson:
Showing up as a parent is different than showing up as a spouse.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
All right. Now this part kind of threw me off when I was looking and reading about the 7 Ways to Help Your Kids Grieve. And by throwing me off, I just never really thought about it or maybe I didn't say it the way you said it. But find time to play. What do you mean by that when you're going through the ways to help your kids get through this?
Sara Hadgraft:
Oh man. I mean, I just think divorce is such a complicated grief that it is so easy. I remember when I was going through my divorce, it felt like I was so tired because I was grieving and it was such work that every step was like I was walking through mud. I had to find times to laugh with my kids. I wanted to model for them, "Hey, even when we go through difficult times, we can find places of happiness. We can find places of joy. It doesn't have to be all full of sorrow." So it was really important to me to play games or to have our community of friends come in and hang out with us so that that would bring them... They could see life outside of the divorce. I never want a divorce to be the whole book of their lives, of their childhood. Just a chapter. And it was a pretty chapter, but we now get to move on and they get to learn how to deal with difficulty.
Seth Nelson:
When you were saying that, I was like, "Oh, it sounds like you're avoiding the divorce. Let's just keep them busy. Get friends over this." You can also laugh about the divorce. You can have gallows humor.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yep.
Seth Nelson:
That's okay. That's a common thing that people do when they're stressed out. It's actually healthy for you to laugh about stuff in difficult times. Did you get to a point when... Sometimes when they're grieving, it sealed, "Ooh, is the joke too soon?", right?
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
But how did you find that and how does that work with couples?
Sara Hadgraft:
Well, I mean, I guess that's one thing I love about my family, is we laugh. I actually say to my clients the guy that wrote the search for the meaning of life was an Auschwitz survivor. The one thing I remember about that book is there as a chapter on humor. They used humor in Auschwitz to survive. I mean, that is so powerful. So absolutely I think that humor has a great place for grief.
Seth Nelson:
You make all this sound easy. "Just laugh a little bit. Talk to your kids about this. Bring some friends over." So we talk a lot about the show like you're going through the grief and then it's very hard and then we have like this great victory story, but how do you do it in the moment? Because our listeners are going through it in the moment or their kids are older now, but they're still dealing with their former spouse, but they still now have grandkids together or they're getting ready to go to a wedding. What are steps you can actually do in the moment when things are difficult with the other side and your kids are around or you know they're watching?
Sara Hadgraft:
Well, I mean, I think in the moment the first thing is you've got to work on your triggers and your reactivity. You do that with a therapist and you do that with self-help. Figuring out what is the trigger that my co-parent does that triggers me to all of a sudden react. I can remember working on a text message one time for 30 minutes thinking if I put it in the text message, it'll sound new and different and things will change. And I put my phone down and I walked away because I realized it's not going to change. This is what it is. That was a powerful moment for me of acceptance. So you will mess up. This is very difficult. But I think you doing your own work in terms of working with a therapist and then also talking to other people that have been through divorce and what worked for them and what didn't work for them.
Seth Nelson:
But that question is really important. It's what worked for you to get past this, what didn't work, it's not a bitch session. Because when you're talking about what worked for you, that means, did they do the hard work?
Sara Hadgraft:
And a lot of people don't. I guess what I see is oftentimes people will get a divorce and then they'll start dating. And I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no. Because if you don't figure out what happened in this relationship, you are going to take it to the next relationship. Slow down. Do the work. Figure out what you are doing, that what you brought to the table that caused this relationship to fail because you're going to bring it into the next relationship. You've got to figure these things out." So I think my divorce was a catalyst of me relearning myself in so many ways.
Seth Nelson:
And that's so important when you're doing that hard work because it's not necessarily pretty.
Sara Hadgraft:
It's not pretty. It's not.
Seth Nelson:
These are the mistakes I made when it's a whole lot easy to talk about the mistakes the other parent made or your spouse made in your relationship. Those are easy to point out because you've been doing it for years, right? Sometimes you didn't contribute to that at all. That's kind of their baggage, their stuff, the stuff they have to work on. But how did you respond? What was going on with you? Did you fuel the fire? Did you not? What was going on there?
Sara Hadgraft:
When you start to become curious about what you did and what you brought to the table instead of defensive, you're on the cusp of learning about yourself in ways that you never could have before.
Seth Nelson:
And I thought your seven... I'm not necessarily a check the box kind of guy, but I really liked your seven. And so I don't want to really miss any of them even if we don't touch on all of them as in depth as others. But remind your kids that everyone has a journey and no one gets the life pain-free. Unpack that because there's a lot there.
Sara Hadgraft:
Well, I mean, I remember talking to my girls about our divorce and I said, "This is part of our story. But down the street, someone has a cancer diagnosis or they've lost a job or there's alcoholism and drug abuse in their family." There's just when you look at families, there are often pain which can lead to a lot of growth, but I didn't want my kids thinking that they're odd for this happening because it's not odd. This world does have pain in it. As a parent, the thing I want to help my kids the most is learn how to walk through the pain in the best possible way, which is grieving, taking breaks, being kind to yourself, talking to a therapist, having a community of friends to love you through it.
Seth Nelson:
So nowadays I would say almost every kid in class knows some kid whose parents are divorced.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yep.
Seth Nelson:
Obviously, if the child who has married parents is now going to go through the divorce, they're going to reach out to other kids and say, "What happened? How is it at your house?" Is that a fair assessment? Is that a fair guess that they're going to talk to their friends or do they usually keep it bottled up and they don't want people to know? Or am I being too general here?
Sara Hadgraft:
No. I mean, I think it depends on the age and I think it depends on the temperament of the kids. There are little six year old girls that will sit at a lunch table and say, "My mommy and daddy just got a divorce." And they don't really understand. They just know the word and they don't really understand what's going on. And then there are other boys... Well, I think girls can internalize. Boys can externalize through anger and irritability and depression and aggressiveness, but I also think boys can internalize. I think it really depends on the child. I think the more that you can create a culture in your family of basically vulnerability. Letting your kids see that you screw up and things hurt you at work or with friendships and then talking about that with kids opens communication with your kids to be like, "Man, my friend was such a jerk today." And you get to talk about that and you get to say, "Yeah, I've had that as well." And that it does hurt.
Seth Nelson:
Well, on that point about making mistakes, I know that I've apologized to my son when I made mistakes and he was little.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yep.
Seth Nelson:
I have all the authority and all the power. Let's be honest about it. When they're four years old, you've basically... I'm not saying they won't throw a temper tantrum, but you've got the power and the control. But when they're four and you apologize, I think that's really powerful for kids to understand like, "Oh, here's this authority figure, but when they make a mistake, this is how you do it," right?
Sara Hadgraft:
Yep. Absolutely.
Seth Nelson:
And along with that, which kind of dovetails into number five is help them find words for their feelings. "I felt remorse, so I said I'm sorry."
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah. Well, and you're teaching such an important skill, which is repair. In relationships, conflict is not necessarily bad. What's bad is when people can't repair after the conflict. So by you going and humbling yourself and saying, "I really see that this was my fault and I'm sorry. I acknowledge and take responsibility for this part. I don't have to take responsibility for everything, but for this part. And I'm really sorry," that's huge. I remember one time I apologized to my daughter and I said, "But you..." And she said, "Nom, you're just making an excuse and you're using your behavior to excuse you." And I was like, "Oh, shit. Okay."
Seth Nelson:
I'd be like, "That was a great point. I'm cutting you off from electronics."
Sara Hadgraft:
I know. I know.
Seth Nelson:
"Don't call me out on that shit."
Sara Hadgraft:
That's what's hard when you're-
Seth Nelson:
"Give me your iPhone."
Sara Hadgraft:
... when you're a therapist and they come back and they're like, "Mom, are you open for feedback?" And I'm like, "Oh, shit. Okay."
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Here it comes. Here it comes.
Sara Hadgraft:
But I came back with, "You know what? I'm sorry, because that's not the kind of mom I want to be." Period.
Seth Nelson:
Right.
Sara Hadgraft:
I didn't give anything else after.
Seth Nelson:
So here's the dangerous part I see. You do all this great work, you teach them how to express their feelings. And then they come to you and they start complaining about the other parent. They're like, "The parent makes me feel this way. This is what happened. This is what they did." And they're complaining, complaining, complaining. And guess what? All those complaints are major reasons why you got divorced from that parent. How do you not just be like, "Oh yeah. Shit, I've been there"?
Sara Hadgraft:
Well, I mean to be honest, I think there's going to be times you're going to do that. There are, because you may be in a thin place and you just cannot hold. You can't hold the ground there. But honestly, I will say, "I think that you have to take your complaint to your parent. I can't do anything about your mom or your dad. This is a relationship issue so you have to find your voice with the other parent so you can say that 'Daddy, that hurt my feelings' or 'Mommy, when you do that, I don't like it. I don't feel like you understand me or you listen'." And kids have to have those skills of stepping in to difficult relationships and having difficult conversations.
Seth Nelson:
Right. And when they're teenagers and they want to talk to you anyway, it's also about giving them coping mechanisms of what words to use. So for example, a word that I really strive hard to use and not use because I'm trying to replace one word with the others, I try not to use but.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Because my view is, kind of what your daughter said was that "What you did was this, but..." And the but after that is the important part in that sentence, right?
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
And that's why your daughter responds that way. Like, "Oh, you're just making an excuse." You can say, "Well, you did this, and I felt this."
Sara Hadgraft:
Yep.
Seth Nelson:
So it gives them equal weight.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
Where the but, everything follow has more power in that sentence. And look, I'm a lawyer, I think words matter.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah. And that's a great negotiating skill right there.
Seth Nelson:
Thank you. It does not work with my fiance. She's like, "I know what the fuck you're doing," you know? She's in the car business so I always hear the presumptive close. She goes, "Really? You're trying to presumptively close me? And I'm like, "I've been trying to do that for 12 years," you know?
Sara Hadgraft:
Right. Right.
Seth Nelson:
But I think those conversations, and even explaining to your child. Try to use and, not but, and see how that here that works. So here's the other thing that I find really hard to do is, how do you tell the truth, and this is number six, without the blame? Because it just creeps in there. Even with the tone of your voice, right? Or your inflections. That I think takes a lot of mindfulness and a lot of thought. Can you kind of give us an example of that?
Sara Hadgraft:
I mean, the example I often use with co-parents... Well, first of all, let me answer the question of how do you do it without the blame. I think you keep the focus on yourself, that you have your story to share and you own your blame and what you did wrong. And you let your co-parent... Hopefully they will share a similar story, sometimes they won't. But you hold onto your story. And that's what you share because that's your truth and that's what you know is real.
Seth Nelson:
How do you do it without the inflection? I get what you're saying. You got to own it. Okay, I'm owning it. But you can say stuff like, "Look, I made a lot of mistakes in the relationship. Your mother still really loves you," or "Yeah, I made a lot of mistakes in the relationship. Hmm. Yeah. But you know what? Your mom loves you." They can just sound different, right? One could be, "I made a lot of mistakes." Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. "It's really her fault", you know? How do you kind of do that even if you're talking about you, because it's so easy to add like your daughter called you out on the but?
Sara Hadgraft:
Well, I think you're going to mess up. I don't think that you have... I mean, it's progress, not perfection. Hopefully as you do your own work, you really start to believe that there was a part that you played here. And when you start to believe that, I think your voice will reflect that. But I will often tell my co-parents 90% of our communication is our body language. So my co-parents will come in and they say, "I never speak bad about my other my co-parent. I would never say anything bad." I said, "Really? Have you ever received a text from your co-parent, looked at it, rolled your eyes and thrown your phone down in front of your kids? You spoke volumes in that moment."
Seth Nelson:
[inaudible 00:32:58].
Sara Hadgraft:
And I know because I've done it. I've done it. I get it. So I think how you can work on your own reactivity to your co-parent's triggers is going to be the best thing. But that takes time. I mean, it takes time because you're grieving your own loss.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, that's such a good point about the body language, because we hear that all the time is how do you respond. And people will say, "Oh, I never say anything bad," but the rolling of the eyes or whatever. And just getting tense. Just tightening up and it's on your face, right? And then you're going to say, "Oh, it's a text from your dad," right? "Oh, what's wrong, mommy?" "It's a text from your dad." Well now, she... Boom. Negative right there.
Sara Hadgraft:
Right. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
[inaudible 00:33:44].
Sara Hadgraft:
And it's a negative if that's the story that you're telling about their dad. I mean that you can also say, "It's a text from your dad. I've not had a really good day. I'm having a hard time right now, but we'll figure it out."
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. End with the positive. End with some hope. End with some hope. Now, I mean, like you say on this stuff, I'm like, "Yeah, that's great. That's great." Sounds easy. This is the hardest one. And I have this skill until I don't. And it's like going off a cliff. It isn't like a slow progression and it's being patient.
I know this is a negative about me, is that I can be really patient till I'm not. And when I'm not, I am fricking done. It seems like I'm turned just like that. Like, what? Everything was fine. Because internally, I can feel I'm getting more and more and less patient, but I don't externalize it. And when you say be patient, you mean with your kids on this whole arc, right? We're not talking 20 minutes. We're talking years, especially if they're little.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yes, yes.
Seth Nelson:
Explain that one.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yes. This is something that will affect the family forever. There will be all kinds of little twists and turns that you can't see with divorce when you sign the papers or go call your lawyer for the first time. So yeah, there will be definitely being patient with yourself and the process. And the patience, I think as you go through the process and you mature, I think that hopefully people start to learn just self-compassion. That you don't have to have it right every single time, that you will fuck it up. We all have. But that it'll be okay. The only thing that it's not okay is if you fucked it up and you don't learn from it.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Over and over and over.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
And that's a recipe for losing your kids.
Sara Hadgraft:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
For losing them in the long run. Right.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yep. You're so justified, that by God you got that last word in and that was so great. And I tell my co-parents that by doing that, you just hurt the kids. And all my co-parents, the one thing they can agree on is they love their kids.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. So why are you going to fuck it up by bashing the other parent and doing all this other crap?
Sara Hadgraft:
Yep.
Seth Nelson:
And that's the thing that I think people miss, is you're modeling how to deal, even if it's in your own mind, with a difficult person. You don't say to your kid, "Your dad's really difficult. Let me show you how I handle difficult people." But they're going to see it eventually.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right? They're going to come to you and say, "Dad says this, this and this." And you say, "Well, this is ways to deal with it. I know that might be difficult for you." Not for me. You keep it on them. Not on you. And you can kind of go through those aspects of it. I find that parents either really work hard and then if they fucked it up, they beat themselves up over it, or they're just totally oblivious.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah. I think one of the most important things I would want your listeners to know about kids is that kids will often tell the parent who they're talking to what that parent wants to hear, especially in divorce. If that parent wants to hear, "Dad's a jerk or mom's a jerk," then when they're talking to dad, they'll be saying, "Mom's a jerk." And the problem with that is then that puts the child in a position to take care of the parents. If the child is telling you what you want to hear, now they know, "Oh, mommy wants to hear that daddy's a jerk. And so that makes mommy feel good so now I got to take care of mommy."
What I really want parents to know is it is not the job of the child to be taking care of you. It is your job to take care of them. And so you're called to do the harder work. And so when you start seeing that, that manipulation of, "Let me tell you what daddy did" and it feeling good as the parent, the mother or the father, then calling yourself, "Hey, we're not going to do that. That's not something in our family that we do. I'm not going to have that conversation." Or I like to say, "Huh, that doesn't sound like mom or dad. Let me call them and talk to them about it." And it gives the child, oh, now the child knows mom and dad talk, "Well, shit. I better make sure that-"
Seth Nelson:
"I might better watch what I'm doing."
Sara Hadgraft:
I better make sure what I'm-
Seth Nelson:
"This shit better add up."
Sara Hadgraft:
Yep. Yep. Yep.
Seth Nelson:
That's right. That's right. We hear that all the time. So first off, thank you for that amazing point, because that I think is key. You decided to have children and everybody knows that deal. When you have a kid, you take care of them. They don't take care of you until you get really, really older. And then if you've done a good job, that shits now on them to take care of you.
Sara Hadgraft:
That's right.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. So you write blogs, which are amazing. We will have those links and everything in the show notes. I just want to thank you so much for taking the time to join us on the Toaster. But before I let you go, where can people find you? You've got great stuff out there.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
So here's the plug.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah. It's sparrowcounsel, C-O-U-N-S-E-L.com. I'm located in Birmingham, Alabama. Yeah, that's where they can find me, on my website.
Seth Nelson:
I lived in Alabama for one year.
Sara Hadgraft:
Oh. Did you like it?
Seth Nelson:
I loved my job. I was a law clerk for a federal appellate judge in Montgomery, Alabama.
Sara Hadgraft:
Oh, wow. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
So that was awesome. Montgomery was just a little too small for me.
Sara Hadgraft:
Montgomery is like the armpit. It's not-
Seth Nelson:
I didn't say it. I love Birmingham though when we'd go up there from time to time.
Sara Hadgraft:
Yeah. Birmingham's fantastic.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. It's great.
So listen, if you got questions out there, you can just go straight to our website. On behalf of our wonderful guest, Sara Hadgraft, thank you for tuning in to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships. Pete, get well soon. See you next week.
Sara Hadgraft:
Thank you.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce & Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce & Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
