Violence in the Divorce Process with Sabrina Osso from Osso Safe
Meet Sabrina Osso
Sabrina Osso from Osso Safe is here to talk to Seth and Pete about violence in relationships, particularly when its part of the divorce process. What do you need to do to stay safe if you’re the one suffering the abuse? How should you talk to your lawyer about it?
It’s a difficult thing to sort through but when you're in this situation, how do you figure out how to escape? But were there warning signs early on that you could’ve seen? And what should you look for if you think you might be suffering abuse of one form or another?
It’s a wide ranging conversation about a difficult – but very important – subject.
Plus, we have a listener question all about divorcing a lawyer and figuring out timeshare for the kids.
Links & Notes
Help is available at the National Domestic Violence Hotline: 800-799-7233
Sabrina Osso on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and YouTube
Got a question you want to ask on the show? Click here!
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. Today your toaster's on fire.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome the show everyone, I'm Seth Nelson as always I'm here with my good friend Pete Wright. What does it mean to feel safe? Do you have bigger locks on your doors? Guards at your office? What does it really mean to feel comfortable in your own skin wherever you are? Sabrina Osso is the founder and CEO of Osso Safe, feel safe where you live work and play. She is a TEDx speaker, real estate agent and consultant in promoting safety and preventing violence in the workplace, schools and in places of residents and she joins us today to share her wisdom when it comes to safety in high conflict divorces. Sabrina, welcome to the toaster.
Sabrina Osso:
Thank you so much for having me, this is so great. We greatly appreciate the opportunity.
Pete Wright:
Well it's great to have you here. It's actually very timely and I don't know Seth if you want to talk a little bit about this. Speaking of safety in the divorce process, you just had a guard associated with you not long ago which it makes this whole topic very resonant for us.
Seth Nelson:
I did, I recently had a case unfortunately where the opposing party suffers from mental illness and was Baker Acted and that's in Florida. Where if you are going to be a danger to yourself or others the state can hold you for up to 72 hours involuntarily and then you're allowed to stay voluntarily if you want. So there's some obviously mental issues going on there, where my life and my client's life were threatened when that was happening. Since I didn't know when this person might have been released, we had armed security at the office and then on my person for basically 24/7. So we take it seriously. We want to make sure that we're safe, that our clients are safe, that our clients' kids are safe and when I mean safe I mean to themselves and others. So it's a serious issue. Pete and I like to crack jokes so we'll try to be appropriate and not make a light of the subject.
But it's a serious subject and with access to weapons that people have you really got to think this stuck through and that's why we're so pleased to have Sabrina on the show to talk about how do you know if you're a victim. How do you know if a friend of yours is a victim? How do you know if you're the abuser or what to look for in abusers? How do you help? There's all these questions and so we're glad to have you on the show.
Sabrina Osso:
Thank you so much and I'm glad you're okay. I'm glad you and your client are okay and you could prepare all you want but there are times where you just can't prepare and you just have to wing it so to speak and use your best, best judgment which it just sounds like you did. So I'm glad for that.
Seth Nelson:
Well, thanks.
Pete Wright:
Well it gets to the topic of our show, our discussion today. We do want to talk about you as you're buried in the statistics. Right? Of the experience of violence at home and work and we want to talk a little bit about the landscape of violence in and around the divorce process. Is that something you see yourself? Is that something you talk about in your training?
Sabrina Osso:
Yes, definitely. Well there is a statistic that states when victims decide to leave there's a 75% chance that they will be killed. This is in violent relationships.
Pete Wright:
Violent relationships. Okay.
Sabrina Osso:
Right. Right. Violent relationships so you're at the highest risk. Now leaving a lot of the time means divorce, right? You introduce divorce to your significant other you're saying, look I want a separation so it is the most sensitive part. However, I want to say when you're in a relationship if you're violent the divorce doesn't really... If you're violent you're going to be violent divorced or not I want to say. I used to not think that. I am a survivor of violence, my father beat my mother on a regular basis. They stayed married until my father's death and he passed away five years ago in November. So divorce, I think they would still be violent and I would have preferred that they got divorced believe me. So I'm not saying don't get divorced.
Pete Wright:
It's like the landscape for violence is already set for you if you're in a violent relationship. Whether the divorce, the legal separation doesn't mean that's not going to come back in the form of some sort of retribution potentially.
Sabrina Osso:
Exactly. Exactly. Yes, because I know and I'm sure-
Seth Nelson:
I always say on that Sabrina, if it's not one thing it's another. Right? If it's not the divorce it's because you didn't put the salt away.
Sabrina Osso:
Right. Right. Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
Triggers are everywhere.
Sabrina Osso:
Yes. Yes. Yeah. Like I said I used to think, yeah why don't my parents just get divorced. But I see now especially in the work that I do if you're a violent person, you're going to be violent divorced not divorced separated, not separated abuse. Yeah, so I like the landscape. Yeah. It's like a big spectrum.
Pete Wright:
Specifically you're speaking of your mother and father, it sounds like physical abuse. But we should at least sort of lay the groundwork on what constitutes abuse in the relationship that may be leading you toward a divorce. I feel like it's not quite one of those questions like if you look around the room and you can't tell who the victim is, it's probably you. But maybe it is and we should at least talk about that.
Sabrina Osso:
One out three women will be beaten or raped in her lifetime. One out of five adolescent girls is abused by her boyfriend. One out of three young people will be in an abusive relationship. One out of seven men is abused. By the end of today four women will be killed by their abusive partners and most of them will be killed after they leave their abusers. 15 million children witness violence in their own homes each and every year, those are just the ones that we know about. Those are just the ones in the US. About 324,000 pregnant women go into the emergency room not for pregnant related issues but for abuse related injuries.
Seth Nelson:
Those statistics are just daunting to me.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
I want to take a step back from that.
Sabrina Osso:
Sure.
Seth Nelson:
Just right up front let people know that if they're in an abusive relationship it's not your fault.
Sabrina Osso:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
It is not your fault. The person who is doing the abusing is at fault and from my experience with dealing with this issue in the legal system. If I had to have a common denominator of a personality type is I always have found that these people have extremely low self-esteem. Is that a fair statement?
Sabrina Osso:
Yes, and I would say they could pretend that they have a lot of self-esteem also like, I'm important, there's no one better than me, I'm always right, do as I say. I would add to that, that it's about possession, it's about control, it's about domination, it's about manipulation.
Seth Nelson:
The gas lighting, it's never their fault.
Sabrina Osso:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
It's always your fault.
Sabrina Osso:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
I told you to do it this way a million times and even though they've changed their mind on how they want something done, it doesn't matter. In their mind they're just going make you the one.
Pete Wright:
If you loved me, you wouldn't make me do the things I have to do to you.
Sabrina Osso:
Right. That's a big one and I'm glad you said that. Yes, you made me do this to you.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Sabrina Osso:
It's your fault that you didn't listen to me and that I punched you, I hit you, I slapped you, I threatened you, I humiliated you, all of that and there are plenty of warning signs. You're going out with somebody, you're dating someone whatever your sexual orientation is it doesn't matter. Whatever your age group is it doesn't matter. Whatever your nationality, your religion, your ethnicity it doesn't matter. The warning signs are pretty standard and I like to say to people you have to know that you deserve to be in a good relationship. You have to know that on the forefront of your mind at all times and that goes back to self-esteem. You have to respect yourself enough to say I deserve to be in a good relationship. I deserve a partner that I'm there for him or her and she or he is there for me and it's a partnership. It's not a domination, it's not you do as I say, it's not I control everything.
No. There are always, always warning signs and a lot of them in the beginning are subtle. So you may think, oh this guy or this woman that I'm going out with they bought me presents, they always compliment me. We go out to dinner and I never pay, he or she always pays and that's fine, that's fine. However, if you have some feeling though that you're feeling like I don't know something's off or I feel like I'm being controlled or wow was that meant as a compliment or was that meant as I always dress the way I dress. I have a lot of style. I have a lot of fashion. So what if I like to wear skirts or tight pants or maybe a show some cleavage now he or she is saying, no, no, no don't wear that I'm jealous. All of these things are warning signs, another big warning sign is money. If they're trying to get at your money and you just met the person or why don't we combine accounts and that way you don't have to deal with the bills anymore and-
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, they make it sound like it's a favor.
Sabrina Osso:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
Like they're helping you out. They're just wheezing it in or isolating you from your friends like, oh I like going out with my friends let's have a double date. No, let's just go the two of us and it's constantly-
Sabrina Osso:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
Right? I think the biggest thing from what you've said so far is you got to have your spidey sense up. When something doesn't sound right or feel right to you, you need to go talk to someone, you need to check on that, don't just let it continue. I've seen it numerous times before where people are like, well you always paid for everything or I tried to pay it was no and we get into a fight. Well that's not a partnership.
Sabrina Osso:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
That's someone controlling you with money.
Sabrina Osso:
Right. Right. I like that you said help. We are big proponents of therapy I'd also say, huge. In fact it's part of our business model that we include in our certifications for properties but there are always warning signs. I mean, if the sexes were reversed-
Seth Nelson:
That's a big point because that's a challenge. That's a challenge that we face in court is people have unconscious bias. We've had cases where the husband was being abused and there is a bit of I have to get over that hurdle. Right?Even if you have a big guy and a small woman, you still have to get over that hurdle where if it was a big guy abusing a small woman everyone just sees that picture. But when the small woman is doing the abuse it's harder to paint that picture because physically it doesn't match, right? So there's issues with that in court when you're trying to prove your case which is hard to do. A lot of this comes down to he said, she said which I stress to the court and it's your job your honor to gauge the credibility. Just because two people say two different stories, obviously they're not both true and that's your job to gauge the credibility and it's my job to try to bring the truth out to you the way that I understand it to be.
From my experience in dealing with this is that it doesn't start with a physical punch.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
We all know that if you're out on your second date and the guy leans over and smacks you, hit you in the face, breaks your nose you're out. You're leaving.
Pete Wright:
Right. Right.
Seth Nelson:
So it's emotional abuse first, it's the gas lighting, it's secluding you, it's getting you away from your friends. Controlling your money then figuring out ways to control you where if you make them mad maybe they ghost you for a little bit because they know that gets under your skin. They will find your buttons.
Sabrina Osso:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
You've got to have your guard up for that. So there's a lot of... From my understanding and all the work I've done with this there's a lot of different characteristics. But they'll use them differently based upon the victim that they're going after.
Sabrina Osso:
They do know what they're doing. It's definitely calculated in a lot of ways and it's a gas lighting, manipulative tactic that abusers will use to control, to kind of rope you in, rope you in little by little.
Seth Nelson:
Hey Pete, it's back to school and it's stressful and listen we're talking about serious topic today with violence and abusers and it can start with alcohol. So we're going back to school, getting back into routine, it can be stressful. We've already talked about you got to get the school clothes, you got to get all the supply list, you got to get the carpool sorted, you got to get to work on time. It's a stressful time and that's one of the main reasons why we like people to think about using Soberlink if they're struggling with alcoholism or being accused of struggling with alcoholism and you want to prove your sobriety.
Pete Wright:
Soberlink, it's a remote alcohol monitoring technology, it's designed to help prove sobriety in custody cases. What is it? It's a little device. It's a breathalyzer that you keep with you and it has facial recognition included. So every time you blow into it's going to take a little picture of you to make sure that it's really you. Allowing you to receive real time updates from monitored co-parents at any time, anywhere allowing for swift intervention for improved child safety.
Seth Nelson:
We use it here at the firm and I know they've helped 100s of 1000s of people document their sobriety in real time for peace of mind for themselves, for their kids and even from the other party and also for the court. So you can just show it to them and say, look I am focused on the kids I'm not drinking. Soberlink is currently offering a free back to school and divorce packet with question and answers from top divorce attorneys, back to school checklist, communication tips and more just go to soberlink.com/toaster. It's easy to understand I think, hey this is what people do when they're the abuser. Let's look at the person being abused because I know a lot of our listeners are like, how do I get into this place? I know I'm being abused. What is it about me... I'm not saying this is a negative. What I'm trying to say is, what is going on with me that I'm allowing this to happen and it's not that it's your fault. But why am I staying in this relationship? How do I get out of this relationship?
What do I need to work on in myself to be strong enough to leave this abuser? So if you're listening and you're not sure what's going on, you feel like am I being abused now or you know that you are. How can they kind of identify like, oh shit I am the victim here.
Sabrina Osso:
We go over at Osso Safe in our various workshops, seminars and speaking engagements 50 reasons why victims don't leave and what constitutes a victim. So the number one reason would be money, right? So money. So if your abuser is the breadwinner in your household it makes it difficult to just get up and leave. Religion can come into play, family, you stay there for the kids. You called the police and the police blamed you the victim. You're a public figure and if this goes out what are people going to think of me, if you have a handicap.
Seth Nelson:
If you're just living in fear all the time.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. I don't want to bring this all the way back to gas lighting but one of the things that you said and I think Seth that you sort of started to illuminate for me is that. The relationships where the abused party doesn't always know that they're in an abusive relationship because they've been in that relationship for so long. We've had stories of, gosh I think I don't want to do your laundry anymore I need you to do your laundry. Well, I hope I remember to feed you and the kids so maybe you do want to do my laundry still. When you hear things like that over the course of people coming in and around this podcast you start to wonder how often people don't recognize because of habituation that they are being abused and taken advantage of and what it looks like and what that influence has on their kids. One of the things that you say is it's the responsibility of safety should not be in the hands of the victims.
Well this is one of those examples where it seems like that's very true, especially if the victim is unconscious.
Sabrina Osso:
Correct. Yes. If you come from abuse it's very easy to fall into that trap and be habituated into an abusive relationship on your own. Your own relationship is now abusive because you come from abuse, from violence, from chaos, from dysfunction. For example, my therapist one of the first things that she ever told me was you go towards what you're used to even if that used to was bad.
Pete Wright:
I need to hear something from Seth, because you said some stuff in there that makes me really question the victim attorney relationship. How do you talk to your lawyer about this kind of relationship? About the kind of stuff that Sabrina is outlining here in a way that your lawyer is going to be on your side and believe you?
Seth Nelson:
Pete, that's a great question. So not surprisingly as we've talked about previously what do lawyers first hear about when a client calls? All the bad shit their spouse is doing.
Pete Wright:
Sure.
Seth Nelson:
Right? So when I hear, "Oh my God Seth, I'm so glad I got to talk to you. This is going to be the worst case you've ever had he is such a narcissist." I'd be retired by now if I got paid a buck for every time a client told me that. Right? I would be Forbes 400 so that doesn't give me any information. I'm not telling you it's wrong, I'm not telling you that they're not a narcissist. But I hear it so much it doesn't help me. So when you start telling me about all the bad stuff they do, what a lawyer will hear is this is just like every other client. I got to figure out what the truth is, I don't know what really the truth is. So the way I try to change the conversation to get to the bottom of this in a... It's a brand new client, I'm trying to form a relationship with them, I want them to trust me. I want to make sure I'm getting clear information that I'm not being lied to, that I'm getting their perspective.
I'm going to have to question that perspective because that's what's going to happen, cross examination, that's what's going to happen in the courtroom. It can get ugly. So what I do is I reframe questions. I'll ask you questions, how do you feel when you're at home? What is going on with you on your levels of stress? Are you feeling anxious? When do you feel anxious? When they're around, when they're not around, when they're coming? I'm looking for really specifics, right? Have you tried to leave this relationship before, if so what happened? So now I'm getting them to focus on their behaviors, their emotional stances, where they are on a daily basis, on a weekly basis through the arc of this relationship. That type of information is going to be much more helpful to me to prove their case because I'm going to take those fears. I feel like I'm always walking on eggshells. I never get to see my friends. It appears like I try to call and then something happens. So when you start with the you.
What's going on with you and you explain that to your lawyer then it's like, what makes you feel that way? What makes you feel the terror and the scaredness? Well because if I do X this happens, I'm always talked down to. Give me some specific examples and then we talk through that. But when you start with you as opposed to they're the worst person ever here's all the bullshit that they do. I hear that all day long, judges hear that all day long and when you go to court on domestic violence is does this person have a reasonable fear of domestic violence? That all has to do with how you're feeling and then you tie that to that person's behavior that's on the other side of that equation and that's vitally important. Don't just call up bitching about the other person. To Sabrina's point this is an escalation, right? So some people catch it earlier, some people catch it later, some people catch it when they're in the hospital. Right? We've talked on this show many times like, if you're trying to get a relationship we always say domestic violence is different.
This is the difference, right?
Pete Wright:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
Some of them, these abusers know that there's a line they can't cross and I've had very smart intelligent people that you would not believe that are thinking about a divorce and they say to me if he would only hit me then I could leave.
Pete Wright:
That would be the line, right.
Seth Nelson:
I said, listen to what you just said. You're so unhappy in your marriage that you wish you were the victim of domestic violence and then it's okay to leave. It doesn't have to get that far. You're allowed to leave someone because you don't like the way they brush their teeth. My point on that is you don't have to have a reason. If you want out you're out. Two people to get married, only one to get divorced. But what they'll say is, well he's a nice guy, he's a provider, he hasn't done this and you start making excuses for why you're staying in this relationship.
Pete Wright:
Sure.
Seth Nelson:
When you're doing that, that should be a red flag to yourself to be like I need to get out and here's why.
Sabrina Osso:
I like that you asked them how do you feel when he or she comes home. How do you feel when... Are you anxious? I was thinking about that right in my own house because I was always scared of my father coming home. It's almost as if you prep yourself physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically, to gear yourself up for oh my gosh what's going to happen? I know an episode is going to happen in some capacity. What do I have to do? I'm sure clients when they tell you that it just draws a better picture about what's going on and I have to say, I like to tell people document the abuse in any capacity, record. We have our cell phones and I know our abuser will take that away, will hurt you even more. If there's any way that you could record because-
Seth Nelson:
Well let me just pause you here. Check your local jurisdiction. There are some criminal statutes that you're not allowed to record stuff at home. So really you need to be careful when you're doing this because sometimes if someone does not want to be recorded there's a right to privacy in your own home.
Pete Wright:
Even in cases of abuse just to be clear.
Seth Nelson:
Yes to be clear.
Pete Wright:
Recording an abusive situation where you are the victim in certain states could get you in more trouble.
Seth Nelson:
Check your local jurisdiction, okay? Now I would find it hard to believe that a state would actually prosecute you for this but it might not come into evidence.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
The court might say, you weren't allowed to do this. No ones going to throw you in jail for doing it ma'am but I'm not allowed to look at it. Right?
Sabrina Osso:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
The other thing that happens is... This kind of goes back to Pete. What we've talked a lot about is if I just get to go to court and have my day in court and tell my story they're going to agree with me and then the next thing you know you show the video and though you were defending yourself. In your mind maybe you did one or two things that made it appear as if you were the aggressor, the abuser because the guy on the other side knows what they're doing and right when the camera comes out they bait you. So it's not always as clean cut and I've watched a lot of these videos. So we just need to be careful with it. Sabrina, I get what you're saying. Man if we had a clear picture of a video that would be amazing. There's just a lot more that goes into it and they don't always help your case, I've seen it more than once. I've objected to videos coming in from the other side, judge overruled my objection. It came in, it helped my case it hurt theirs.
Sabrina Osso:
Abusers they can only keep their poker face on for so long and the best predictor of future violence is past violence. So I think that's a big indicator whether the he said, she said factor. If someone has a pattern of violence and that's the definition of abuse is a pattern of coercive behavior. If you were to say, what is the definition of abuse? It's a pattern of forceful behavior whatever that may be verbal, physical, sexual, emotional, psychological so on and so forth. Financial.
Seth Nelson:
When you're the one listening to this show this is a pattern in practice. Be mindful that, oh I'm always on eggshells. I'm always nervous when they come home or I feel like I can't do anything right.
Pete Wright:
We have a question from a listener, Seth Nelson can you believe it we have a listener question. I'm very excited to hear your thoughts on this. This listener has requested to be anonymous and so I am calling them K Diddy. K Diddy asks the following, "I would love to hear specific advice on two of the tricky aspects of my divorce. I'm divorcing an attorney." Grimacing emoji face. "Litigation. He lives in another state. He wants 50/50. There is no state or court official to determine parenting time. How can I develop a schedule that is best for the child? His proposal of two weeks on and two weeks off seems untenable in the long run. Thank you really enjoy the podcast. Either aspect would be great to hear more on. I have a good attorney but I'd like to hear others' thoughts." Two weeks on two weeks off, living in another state unless that city is Kansas City I think everything is ridiculous about two weeks on two weeks off traveling state to state. That makes the kids crazy.
Seth Nelson:
First off divorcing an litigation attorney is a wise move, let's get that out. So first off you are off to a good start here. Okay?
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Now regarding the kids, people get hung up on this 50/50 stuff. I hate to break it to you you're not getting 50/50 in the year because there's an odd number of days in a year. So let's try to get away from this 50/50. What we want out of a parenting plan is enough quality time with our children so we can form bonds and relationships and be there for them in good times in bad. So that when they're 11 and 13 they come to you and when they're 21 and 23 or 31 and 33, you got to play the long game. Now if someone just hell bent on 50/50 and the kids are in school there's ways that you can do that. The kind of derogatory term is Disney dad. Mom has them during the school year, dad gets them for vacations more in the summer, spring break, long weekends. So you're doing all the heavy lifting with the school, you'll get more rewards out of that because that's important but it's not necessarily all the great quality time when you're taking vacations.
So depending on how far you live two weeks on two weeks off does not work. If you live too far apart in a different state because the kids can't go to school. It just doesn't work.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right? So think about, "Extra," time and I'm putting extra in quotes but time for dad over spring break. Think about summer is 10 weeks, maybe they get seven you get three. Maybe they get long weekends but they have to come to your location so they can see the kids in their extracurriculars on the weekends. There's all different ways to divide up 50/50 and I make light of this. I don't know the age of these children so it's hard to tell but if there's a kid that's six years old, we've got 12 years left we could do 50/50. Mom gets them for the next six years, dad gets him for the following six years. No one wants to do that. That's not what we're talking about but that's why I think the term 50/50 just throws people off because that's not what people want. Because you're not going to go six years without seeing your kid just so you can get them six years after.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
So we got to really just think through this plan. So I would come up with creative plans, be flexible on the schedule. See if dad can get time in your jurisdiction so he could see what kids are doing on the weekends and try to add in some extra holiday time.
Pete Wright:
Do you ever split by minute? Because there is an even split if you split up the year by a minute.
Seth Nelson:
Pete, I've been doing this a long time I've never thought of that.
Pete Wright:
262,800 minutes.
Seth Nelson:
I'm with you.
Pete Wright:
That makes 50/50 time parent share.
Seth Nelson:
Okay.
Pete Wright:
You know it, you know it. You can sing along, we've got a song. Welcome to toaster the musical everybody. We're really, really glad you're here. Bringing innovative ways to sing and dance your way through court.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Good idea, I'm not going to approach that in court.
Pete Wright:
You literally heard it here first.
Seth Nelson:
Right.
Pete Wright:
I'm very excited about that.
Seth Nelson:
But these are tough decisions because people get locked in, right? I'm not making light of the question, it's a great question.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Now listen, let me just tell you one other thing. Okay, you're divorcing a lawyer and they're a litigator. Here's the bottom line if they're representing themselves the saying goes, they have a fool for a client. You're not outmatched just because they know what a request for admissions is or an interrogatory is. Okay? Lawyers inevitably are horrible in court in witnesses. So listen to your lawyer. I hope you have a good one, we've had some podcasts. Listen back on how to interview your lawyers, ways to prepare for mediation, what to do to prepare for a testimony and trial. Run those topics by your lawyer and see if they agree on those approaches.
Pete Wright:
Absolutely. Thank you K Diddy for writing in we sure appreciate you spending the time to pen the paragraph. Don't forget either Seth's advice or 262,800 minutes.
Seth Nelson:
I want to shift here just for a moment Sabrina.
Sabrina Osso:
Sure.
Seth Nelson:
There's a lot of these people out here listening that are like, oh my God thank God it's not this bad. We're just not getting along, we've drifted apart. I'm not dealing with any of these issues and I've had listeners reach out to me that I know and say Seth sometimes I'm like thankful like man my divorce wasn't that bad. But we all have friends that maybe we lose touch with because they're dating someone new. So what can the listener out there that's not the abuser, that's not the abused, that's a friend but they've got some concerns. How can they help?
Sabrina Osso:
Definitely listening because usually victims are told, leave. Why don't you just leave? Why are you in the relationship? You don't attend it to be blaming but in a way it is kind of blaming. So I like to tell people, listen just really listen. Listen to whatever it is that they have to say and let them know look if you're not ready to talk right now we can talk in a week. We could talk in a month, we could talk in a couple of days. Let it be okay if they don't want to talk right then and there.
Seth Nelson:
On that point Sabrina if you're the friend that, hey we used to get together all the time and now I'm not hearing from them. Check your fucking ego and put it aside because it might not have to be about you. Your friend that really cared for you and used to call all the time and you used to call and now she's not calling back or texting she might be in trouble.
Sabrina Osso:
Right. Right.
Seth Nelson:
So you can say, hey I haven't seen you would love to see you. Is everything okay? You can ask a question, right? It doesn't have to be about your relationship and who called last and why are you ghosting me. Well maybe there's a problem, maybe there's not, maybe she just doesn't like you anymore. Maybe doesn't like hanging out with you anymore. Maybe they're too busy at work.
Pete Wright:
But speaking of friends is there an action you can take as the friend? Do either of you actually ever counsel anybody to, yeah call the authorities on behalf of your friend. Is that a thing that's a useful thing to do for people listening?
Seth Nelson:
I've told that to friends like, "Look man, you're in trouble." I have a friend that suffered from abuse from more than one person he was dating. Women would abuse him and I would be there to support if he wanted to talk about it. I would say, "Do you want unsolicited advice?" That would be my lead in. If he said no I wouldn't give it.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
Right. If he said yeah, like okay here's what I think and it's tough, it's tough. There's a lot of stuff that goes on to get yourself in this situation that you might have never had control over, it's not your fault. Maybe you watched abuse when you were a child, maybe you were abused as a child. Maybe you were having a rough patch and a low self-esteem and someone kind of took advantage of you. There's a lot of stuff going on there that you're going to have to ultimately work through to protect yourself from abusers. But your friends are out there, you got to reach out which is hard. It's especially hard when you're in the thick of it. So if you're a friend out there and you haven't heard from someone and there's been a shift. You see some changes, something's happening and your own spidey sense goes up. Maybe just reach out as a friend and say, hey I haven't heard from you while are you okay? Maybe that helps, maybe it doesn't. Sabrina, is that a good question to ask?
Sabrina Osso:
Definitely and I would say to suggest please see a therapist. Please see a therapist, here are some phone numbers, here are some email address, some websites. At least give it to him or her and that way they could kind of search on their own and consider it. Because a therapist is a completely third party and maybe they could get them to open their eyes that a friend or a family member that's looking to intervene can't get through. But a third party, someone who's a professional can get them to open their eyes and say, "Wow, what do you mean he pulled your hair? Or what do you mean that she humiliated you at that party and called you all of these names." That's abuse.
Seth Nelson:
Right. But on that point if you happen to tell your spouse or they find out that you're going to therapy they're not going to like it, they're going to be losing control. So that therapist is for you, you don't have to go there and tell everything that happened and if they don't like the fact that you're going and you're trying to improve yourself that's another sign. So you got to take care of yourself.
Sabrina Osso:
Well you lie you say I'm at work late.
Seth Nelson:
No, but what I'm saying is when they find out. They look at your phone, I see you're at a therapy appointment, they followed you, whatever they did. But my point is if you're going to get help, if you're going to reach out to others they tend to try to isolate you and so they're not going to necessarily like that and when they point that out that's another sign to you, hey this is a problem.
Sabrina Osso:
Right. Oh, definitely.
Pete Wright:
You know what Sabrina? You had started telling us a little bit about what you do. As we get close to wrapping up here give us just briefly the pitch on the trainings that you do to help people feel safe in their homes and work.
Sabrina Osso:
What we are introducing into the real estate industry as I mentioned are Osso Safe certifications and that is for landlords and tenants right now. We're looking to have this propagated over all residency because if you think about it everything happens or begins in the home. So if we make a concerted effort to make home safe I think a lot of other problems will dissipate and we're saying, Mr and Ms landlord, hire us we'll get your property Osso Safe Certified. They've purchased the Osso Safe Home Sweet Home package and in this package it consists of a policy, a seminar, an app and therapist assigned to the property. So the policy basically states that... And everybody signs the policy, all of the residents if you will and you know going into that property that, wow I'm held to a higher regard, a higher standard. If I act abusively I'm out, I get evicted me the abuser only. That's the policy. The seminar everybody gets educated on facts, statistics, warning signs, definitions of abuse, what constitutes a good relationship. So that way you know what is a good relationship, you know the warning signs.
So that way everybody's educated. The third component is an app. I hired a software company to design a app and this is installed in the building if you will, in the residence. It will detect violent like movements and captures them in real time issuing alerts to the landlord. So it doesn't pick up documents, it doesn't pick up conversations. It picks up a punch, a slap, a hit, a kick, spitting, sexual assault and it will issue alerts to the landlord. So it eliminates the he said, she said factor. "Wow, I just saw you beat the crap out of her in my unit two and you just beat the crap out of him in my unit 10, this is grounds for eviction." So that's the technology portion of the package. This is what we're introducing into the real estate industry, making safety a required standard condition or residency which is how it should be.
Pete Wright:
We will have links in the show notes. The website is ossosafe.com. O-S-S-O, safe.com and you can learn all about everything that Sabrina is doing. Sabrina, thank you so much for joining us for this conversation it's a tough subject. We appreciate your willingness to join us and share some of these harrowing statistics.
Sabrina Osso:
Thank you so much Seth and Pete, thank you for the opportunity.
Seth Nelson:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
Thank you all for downloading and listening to this show. Don't forget if you have a question you can ask that question. Just visit howtosplitatoaster.com click on the button that says ask a question and submit that question to us and we will answer it right here on the show. On behalf of Sabrina Osso and America's favorite divorce attorney Seth Nelson. I'm Pete Wright and we'll catch you next week right here on How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law with offices in Tampa Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright, is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
