Smart Alcohol: Soberlink Enhances Child Safety Amidst Custody and Alcohol Litigation with Chris Beck

Soberlink is a tool used to identify, test, and communicate alcohol use. If you’re in addiction recovery you might think of it as your accountability partner. For our purposes, it’s all about being accountable to yourself, to your former spouse, and to the court, in an effort to keep clean and preserve your relationships with your kids in the divorce process.Chris Beck joins us from Soberlink to talk about the tool, the technology behind it, how it is used in the law, and their advocacy surrounding advocacy against weaponizing alcohol addiction. In developing the tool, in fact, you'll hear how their position aligns to our own: to provide court-admissible proof of sobriety in an effort to regain health and safety in your most important relationships, kids at the top of the list.

About Chris Beck

Chris Beck is the VP of Business Development for Soberlink Healthcare. Chris’ primary responsibilities include working with Family Law Judges, Attorneys, and Health Care Professionals across the country to educate them on Soberlink’s modern approach to alcohol monitoring for Child Custody Cases. Chris and his wife Sheila are Licensed Foster Parents in NC and spend their free time advocating for children in their local community. His family welcomed a new foster baby in early 2019, which continues to strengthen his family values and brings the total to four kids and counting. Over the last four years, Chris has been fortunate to share his advocacy for kids through his education initiative with Family Law Professionals across the country. Due to these efforts, Soberlink has seen a significant rise in education over the last two years, helping position the system as an essential tool in every Family Law practice.

Episode Transcript

Pete Wright:Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. Today, "What happens when your toaster is tipsy?"Seth Nelson:Welcome to the show everyone. I'm Seth Nelson, and I'm here as always with my good friend, Pete Wright. Today on the show, we're going to talk about alcohol and alcoholism. Soberlink is a tool used to identify, test, and communicate alcohol use. If you're in addiction recovery, you might think of this as your accountability partner. For our purposes, it's all about keeping you accountable to yourself, your kids, your former spouse, and the court, in an effort to keep you clean, and preserve relationships with your children. Chris Beck is VP of business development at Soberlink, and he's here today to talk about the tool, technology, the law and advocacy. Chris, welcome to the toaster.Chris Beck:Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.Pete Wright:I think this technology is fascinating, and I think it is even more fascinating using it in the context in which we are talking about it today, using it in relationship with the courts and how it works. I think in order to just set up the conversation, we thought we would talk a little bit first, Chris, about the technology. What is it exactly that Soberlink does? And if alcohol plays a role in your relationship with your former spouse, what might you expect? And then we'll pivot, and talk a little bit about how it's used in the courts and the advocacy work that you do. How's that sound?Chris Beck:Sounds great. Sounds great.Pete Wright:So, introduce us to it.Chris Beck:Our device is called Soberlink, of course. We do alcohol monitoring for child-custody cases, where one or both of the parents have been accused of abusing alcohol during their parenting time. So, when two people get divorced and someone's being accused, or someone has alcohol-use disorder, that's where Soberlink comes into play. What's great about Soberlink is that, we are, as you said, used as an accountability tool. They can blow into our device at any time, anywhere, and get immediate results of their BAC.Our device, actually, is a high-tech breathalyzer where we've combined it with a camera, and a wireless way to communicate it to anyone that's associated with the monitoring agreement. Imagine, you blow into this device, it's taking a picture of you as you're blowing into it. It uses facial-recognition software to confirm your identity, and then it sends it to everyone that's on the agreement, or associated with it. Immediately you know if that person that's with your kids is sober, or not drinking at the time they're doing their parenting. Very interesting how it all takes place, but it's an empowerment tool at the end, and that's really what we'd like to talk about.Pete Wright:What I told my wife just before we walked in, I said, "What do you think about this? What would you want to know?" And, of course, we're married and not going through a contested divorce, and alcohol is not really an issue, but her first question is, which may have been a leading question. "How much can you drink and not get pinged by Soberlink before...?" It's just going off our standard blood alcohol rates?Chris Beck:It is. It's a zero tolerance system. If you were in the criminal courts, a lot of times nothing gets registered as a positive until you're over that 0.02. But with family law, we want to be zero tolerance. We want to know if there's any alcohol in that person's system at the time they're with the kids, so it registers anything over a 0.005. So, I have one beer, I'm going to test positive for sure. Even two hours afterwards, based on my elimination right now. Everyone's elimination rate is different. Depends on your size, how long you've been drinking, male, female, all these different things. There are a lot of different things that come into play, but for me, I can have one beer, two hours later, still test positive.Pete Wright:Okay. Not that I'm here to try and teach people how to trick Soberlink, but immediately my head goes into scheduling.Seth Nelson:#asking for a friend. I know where you're going, Pete.Pete Wright:We've talked about this before we came on, Seth, and you immediately started running off stories of how the technology helps you in court in terms of the people that you're representing.Seth Nelson:Oh, I think even before we get to court. I think Chris kind of hit on the head at the very start. When he said, "If you are suffering from alcoholism." Chris used slightly different terminology, or, "Whether you're being accused of it." I think that it can be used two ways, the different ways are one of perception. If you're being accused of it and you're convinced you are not suffering from alcoholism, this is a very simple way to, quote unquote, prove that you don't have an issue.The way that I have advised numbers... I can't even tell you, Pete, how many clients, how many times these issues come up... is, "If you get Soberlink, you buy the device, and you subscribed to the subscription..." And Chris can... We'll ask him more about how all that works later... "But, before you pick up the children, an hour before, I want you to blow into that. And once you pick up the children... You don't want to do it necessarily in front of them, depending on how old they are and all what's going on, and whether they have knowledge base on this... But within the first 20 minutes of having the kids, you pick them up, you bring them home, you're getting them a snack, you excuse yourself to the bathroom, you do a quick blow." Because it takes how long, Chris?Chris Beck:In 60 seconds you're able to get the device, and it's four seconds of breath, so it's not very long to actually complete that test.Seth Nelson:Right, so you do that, you have a clean read. You drop the kids off four hours later, because you just had them that afternoon, whatever the case may be, and within 10 minutes of dropping them off, you blow again. So now, you've gotten a blow an hour before you pick them up, so there's no issues. 10 minutes, 20 minutes after you had them, and then 10 minutes after you're... You weren't drinking that time.The reason that I have them do it before, during, and after, Pete, is that shows that it's during the care, custody, and control that you have of your children. It's not like, "Oh, well, he blew an hour before, but he snuck to the bathroom and had a couple shots when he had the kids. How do I know"? This is so easy to do. You then get to go in and say, "Look, I'm trying to show you. And these are hoops I don't think I should jump through." I advise my clients to, "Put your ego to the side. Your spouse has a concern. You believe it's unjustified. What better way to deal with it than to prove that it's not justified anymore?"That is powerful. It's powerful when you're trying to settle a case, it's powerful for the parent to be able to know that, "When I'm with my children, I'm going to be clean. I'm going to hold myself accountable." Or the parent that says, "I shouldn't be doing this anyway." And I'm like, "Well, that's fine. Jump through this little hoop. If it's not a problem, it's not a problem. And then we are going to alleviate the concerns with independent verifiable third-party analysis that no one's going to be able to refute. Even if your spouse never believes it, their lawyer's going to believe it, and the court's going to believe it."Pete Wright:Well, it seems like all of this that you're talking about, Seth, is the result of something that Chris started with before we started our conversation. Which is around weaponizing alcohol abuse disorder, and specifically weaponizing alcohol abuse disorder in a contested divorce. Can you talk a little bit about that, Chris?Chris Beck:Alcohol use disorder is not a moral failing. It's a disease. And that's where we really have to get our arms around. A lot of people in the past have talked about, "Well you can't drink 24 hours prior to seeing your kids, "That was a common order back in the day. Everyone was losing their kids, because the fact was, is that they couldn't control the disease unless they had proper treatment, unless they were going through the proper steps that were involved. And that was really difficult.I think if everyone understood the disease model, we would be much more understandable to what should be perceived. 80% of our testing... This is pretty, pretty large... 80% of the people who go on to our system have a positive test, and that just tells you how difficult it is to stop drinking, how difficult it is to help the people that we serve.Pete Wright:80%. Do you have any sense of people who report they have an alcohol problem, or an alcohol abuse disorder before they join the system?Chris Beck:That's probably a good point there, Pete. I do not have that data. I would say that the majority, though, are people that are possibly in denial. They haven't really gotten to the point where they're accepting. They're still in that denial phase.Seth Nelson:And here's the thing about the denial phase from a litigation perspective, and a trying to protect yourself and protect kids, and get your quality time with your kid. Even if you're in denial and you're like, "I don't have a problem," but you agreed to go use Soberlink, if that's what keeps yourself accountable for that weekend that you have your kids, then it's doing its job, you're doing your job when you have your kid.This is very powerful, because in the modern days... Where Chris was saying, back in the day where you can't drink 24 hours before, what I try to do when I'm dealing with these issues is, "I want a clean breathalyzer within so many hours before you pick up the children. And it's got to be enough time where if it comes back where you've been drinking, you forfeited that time. But the other spouse has to make arrangements to pick up the kids. You can't do that five minutes beforehand. If aftercare closes at 06:00, and you don't have to use Soberlink until 05:55 , and you have some alcohol in your system, that's five minutes is not enough time for your spouse then to come get the children. You got to work on some logistics with this to make it seamless for the kids.""You figure out, 'Okay, if it comes back where there's alcohol in the system, mom will be notified immediately, or dad will be notified immediately.'" So the other parent then has the hour to go pick up the children. And then they pick up the kids and then it's more seamless and it's not craziness at pick-up drop-off right. And then you also have mechanisms of what happens is, when you have the children if you slip up. It can be very powerful, but you got to think about logistics, so we know when, where, and how is it going to be implemented if, and when it comes back a positive test.Pete Wright:Well, and I think that the second piece that comes into that is how long does it take for all the other parties involved, let's say, opposing counsel, and your spouse who believes you have an alcohol abuse issue, to actually start developing trust that the system is doing what it's doing. If you're saying, "Okay, my former spouse has an alcohol problem. I believe it. I see them drink, and I know they have an alcohol problem." And you say, "I don't have an alcohol problem. We drink occasionally, but I'm a casual drinker." I imagine it's going to be hard for the former spouse to say, "Okay, I see the data now. I trust it." How long does that take before You stop contesting every single drop-off and hand off?Chris Beck:Yeah. I've seen a lot of different timelines that you're describing there, Pete. I've seen where people just want to see it for 30 days, but then I've seen it drag on for two years. And they're never going to trust their ex, no matter what is put in front of them. So I've seen all whole parts of that spectrum, and I'm sure you have too.Seth Nelson:I think what Chris said at the end is, there are some that will never trust the data. And ultimately, as the person who is the one using the technology to prove to themselves, the court, opposing counsel, whoever it may be, independent third-party data, your goal is no longer to persuade your former spouse that you're healthy. Your goal then shifts to say to the court, "I am healthy. I've been doing this while we've been litigating for the last 12 months, Judge. I haven't had one positive test. And therefore I don't believe I need to be monitored. And I've been doing it voluntarily, I wasn't even court ordered to do it."Or, "I've done it for three months or six months. We're all good." So, at that point, a judge, in my experience has been like, "Okay, we're good." I've rarely seen where a judge says, "You will continue to do this by court order until the children are 18." The other thing is on parenting issues like this, the older the children get, the safer they become, because they can look at the parent and said, "I'm not getting in the car," or call the other parent, "I need you to pick me up."Pete Wright:Yeah, they have will have their own.Seth Nelson:Right. When you're three years old, and you're strapped in a car seat in the back seat, you have no control.Chris Beck:That's a great point.Seth Nelson:Oh, Chris said I had a great point. We got to make sure we emphasize that when we play this podcast, Pete. I like that. Yeah, giving me some props there.Pete Wright:Well, and it's not as though soberlink has not done the homework. When you look at the device... I love it, because I'm a nerd. I look at this thing, and it's got the facial recognition, I assume that's set up at the time of... If in this kind of a scenario, you'd set it up in front of witnesses, that says, "Okay, I'm I am who I say I am. This is my picture, and I'm facially tied to the device." Can you walk us through how the setup works for people who are concerned?Chris Beck:The setup process is, once they have signed the monitoring agreement, we know all the parties that are involved, they know the expectations, and how to do the testing protocol. They would call our customer service team, and they would run them through the very first test. We make sure that we have a photo on that very first test that becomes the master photo, which then is used upon every other test. Now, the concerned party, or the attorneys can get that photo of the very first test to confirm that it is who they say it is, but we've never once seen that someone's able to beat the system through at the very beginning, having someone else activate the device.Pete Wright:And the technology takes into account beards and facial changes, and glasses, and things, I assume.Chris Beck:It does. It actually gets smarter as it goes on [inaudible 00:16:42]. As facial hair grows in, it we'll start accounting for that. And then as it gets shaved off, it will account for that, so yes, we do ask that you remove hats and glasses during the test. But, as we've seen, our facial recognition, software has really been extremely successful in driving identity.Pete Wright:Seth was wondering about face tattoos, because he's considering something, his boxers. He's got a favorite boxer he's got... Yeah, I didn't want to name drop, but he's got some Tyson fantasies.Seth Nelson:Yeah. But Pete, it was really going to be America's favorite divorce lawyer.Pete Wright:Family lawyer. Right?Seth Nelson:Yeah. Right. So Chris, that's what Pete always... Not always, but frequently calls me at the end of the show. But, I'm a little concerned about it, because one, I think I have to write it backwards for it to show up properly. And there's no spellcheck on tattoos. Right?-Pete Wright:Accurate. That's true.Seth Nelson:Or typos or whatever, so I'm giving it some thought. But, Pete, you raise an interesting point about being a nerd, because you get all excited about the technology. And I was all excited because Chris mentioned more than once the monitoring agreement. I'm like, "That sounds like a contract. I can't wait to talk about this."Pete Wright:Oh, law-nerd [crosstalk 00:18:02]. Absolutely.Seth Nelson:Yes. We're here all day, every day. So Chris, here's my assumption, correct me if I'm wrong, please. That is basically an agreement on who's going to get the results of this test, and Soberlink's not allowed to send it on to anybody else, only who's listed. And does that get plugged in and show up via text messages, or email, or a smokescreen? How do those people get that?Pete Wright:Can I share it with Instagram, or with TikTok?Chris Beck:All the results are shared only with those individuals who have enlisted on the monitoring agreement, so Seth, you're exactly right. One reason why we use facial recognition instead of submitting a photo to individuals is, we don't want it on TikTok. We don't want those photos on Instagram, they're not flattering. And that's another way that we see other systems being weaponized.We want to make sure that everything is very compliant with HIPAA, and we make sure that when people call in, we check their email. And also the second identity is making sure that we have first and last name, and so that when we check before we give any results, they're part of that monitoring agreement. That's why I always say, "Make sure attorneys are listed on the monitoring agreement, because then it makes it a little easier to get all the results."Seth Nelson:On that same point, when we go to CLSP, continual legal education, I always like to talk about practice tips. And for the attorneys out there, a practice tip is, make sure whatever agreement or court order that this might be putting in to the system, so to speak, you're saying that it can only be used to monitor. The receiving party, and not make a copy, can only use it for court purposes, cannot republish it, can't do a screenshot or a screen save, any of that stuff.You really want to protect it, because the goal, the goal is to keep kids safe. And you want to encourage the person who you're saying has an issue to enter into this agreement voluntarily, or you're trying to persuade a judge to order it. The more protection you give on, what I'll call collateral damage, as opposed to saying, "Focus on the issue at hand, keeping kids safe," the higher likelihood a court is either going to order it, or you're going to get an agreement. If you're truly worried about keeping your kids safe, you don't care about whether you get to post it on TikTok or social media. You care that that comes back clean when your spouse or former spouse, parent of your child has care, custody and control of the children.Pete Wright:What is the practical difference between choosing to test during parenting time versus just daily, consistent testing day after day, after day? Why would someone need to test daily if they're not seeing the kids daily?Chris Beck:A program level two is the daily testing program that we have, where we're actually testing on a schedule two to three times a day. That is more of our treatment model. This is something where we're trying to get that individual to see some change in their behavior, their cognitive behavior, so the repetition of those tests, and seeing that they're compliant day after day, gets them to that next level, and gets them through their treatment. It's validating all the things that they have set up to get to where they're at. Again, it's just something that is repetitive on a test. It's not something that they're anxious about, where it becomes random testing. We want it to be scheduled, we want it to be a new behavior that is created.Seth Nelson:From a litigation perspective Pete... And I've made this argument both ways in court, in Florida. Check your local jurisdiction... There has to be a nexus, a connection between whatever behavior you're concerned about of the other parent and the children. One argument is, you have a week-on week-off schedule, why does it matter, to your question, Pete, if on the week off, if he doesn't have the children or she doesn't have the children, if they drink all week?If they drink Monday through Friday, they drop the kids off Monday at school, they started drinking Monday afternoon, they don't pick them up until Monday afternoon, the following week. And they drink straight through until Sunday. One argument is, no impact. They weren't on the phone with the kids. They weren't FaceTiming with the kids. You just have week-on, week-off. You see your kids for a week, you don't talk to them for a week. That's one aspect. The other aspect is-Pete Wright:I think you just described a reason for us to do a whole different podcast episode. We're going to need to talk about that another time.Seth Nelson:... The other flip side of that coin is, to Chris's point earlier, is alcohol-abuse disorder is a daily struggle. So, the flip side of that argument is, "Judge, if they have to drink for the week they're not with the children, that's going to bleed over into when they are. And that's why you have to monitor it. You don't just monitor cancer on the week you have the children. How is that week before going to impact the following week?" And there's the nexus. In some judges, because they have a lot of discretion, we'll say, "Doesn't matter. I don't care about the week off. I only care the week on." Other judges are like, "I'm monitoring every day."Pete Wright:Well, to that point, we were talking in the context of family law, and the divorce process, but the whole treatment program, when you're talking about the Soberlink level-two treatment program, it brings to mind the whole idea of this podcast, saving relationships. How does Soberlink go into... Or serve saving relationships before they get to the divorce process? I know that you were involved in advocacy, and your work toward building awareness toward so many bigger issues than just the family law process. I wanted to give you a chance to talk a little bit about what else you're doing.Chris Beck:Soberlink also participates in being that mechanism after treatment that reinforces the treatment that someone with alcohol-use disorder has actually been through. Instead of self-reporting back, they're reporting through our device, their sobriety and their, I want to say, staying on the right path. That is being reinforced by them blowing into our device, and showing to their mental health professional, or their sober coach that they're continuing to being sober. Or maybe it's set up to be around their recovery circle.We have a program called Share, which we are doing in the treatment side of things. Where, if a person comes out of treatment, and wants to build the relationships back with all those important individuals in their lives, could be either their wife or their husband or their kids, but it could be just best friends, "Let's prove to them that I'm sober now. And I will send you my sobriety results, and my [inaudible 00:25:34]. And if I do have a slip, you're there to help me immediately get me back on the right path." That's really where we're going with our technology, and that's where it's been super successful for us.Pete Wright:Saving relationship, Seth. One breath at a time.Seth Nelson:Exactly. That's what we're all about. I had another question, Chris.Chris Beck:Sure.Seth Nelson:We get a lot of concern about drinking and driving, especially with little kids. What, if anything, can Soberlink do on that front?Chris Beck:Our device is used remotely. So, I would say that many things that you've mentioned in this podcast was about making sure that the parenting plan has a lot of details with how you do the exchange properly, how you do the testing during the parenting time. And there can be some sentences around, "What happens when we're going to drive to, let's say, soccer practice?" Maybe there's testing that's done 20, 30 minutes before that actually takes place.I had a friend, actually, that was on Soberlink, and the wife would actually test before school pickup just to make sure that, we wanted to ensure sobriety before picking up the kids at school. The husband would make sure that one hour before, like you said, that parent had enough time to actually get to the school in case mom wasn't ready. They're still together today, because that's how she earned her trust back, was blowing, compliant, time after time.Pete Wright:But it doesn't sound like... Soberlink does not facilitate a connection to the car. You're not going to lock down the car if the parent decides, "I'm going to go ahead and drive drunk?"Chris Beck:Yeah. There are other technologies out there, ignition airlock systems that do, do that. But yeah, ours is more to everyday lives, making that tool available everywhere. Not just when you're drunk.Pete Wright:That seemed like a leading question. Seth, did you have you want to follow onto that?Seth Nelson:No, I just...Pete Wright:Were you leading the witness just now?Seth Nelson:No, I would never consider doing that, Pete. I'm a little kind of upset that you even would think that, and pose that question. But, if you feel that I do that and you want me to be monitored, I'll get a court reporter at every single hearing, and I'll submit those transcripts to you until I gain your trust.Pete Wright:[crosstalk 00:28:03]. That's all I want. It's all I wanted to hear.Seth Nelson:No, I think the point of that is, what other technologies are out there, because I know you're the tech guy, and to see what we can do to keep people safe. Having those specificity, or the specifics within any agreement, monitoring agreement, temporary parenting plan, contract, or any legal term you want to throw at, it is critical. The other thing is, which we haven't mentioned is, if you just fail to take the test, practice tip, it's a deemed fail. If you don't take it, and just don't do what you're supposed to do that hour before pickup, and there was no notification that goes out, then that's deemed a failed test. It's just as bad as having it in the system so that... You don't get the benefit of the doubt when we're coming [inaudible 00:29:02] these serious issues.Pete Wright:Any issues with jurisdictions, can you use Soberlink everywhere you want to use it?Chris Beck:We've been used all across the US in every single state. By county, we have not hit every single county in the US, that would be impossible. But we also are used in Canada and overseas, so yeah, we've had a lot of success. Especially when there are some issues with the family-law code, we see a lot of the voluntary that Seth mentioned, where the two parties will come together and stipulate that they'll use our device, because it's the least invasive device out there, and you can use it discreetly. I think you mentioned the very beginning, kids don't even need to know it.Seth Nelson:It's a serious issue, and I think my gut feeling on all this from my years of practice is, it doesn't have to be weaponized. It's about keeping your kids safe, and it's about showing yourself that, "Hey, I'm doing what I need to do." Or if you don't have the issue, don't be afraid to do it, because then you're just eliminating a lot of headaches, and litigation, and costs, and fees.I've had these cases be where I've shown up at a mediation, I've shown up at court with six months of clean, and they say to me, "Well, Seth, why do I have to abstain from alcohol when I don't have a problem for six months?" I say, "You don't, this is a personal choice. I'm just telling you, you're going to save a whole lot of time, money and effort if you make that decision. And I'm not litigating alcohol issues for the next year and a half, two years. I can knock this out in six months and all you're doing..."And Chris, why don't you speak to this? How much is a subscription on the different levels? Because, no matter what Chris says right now, it's going to be a whole lot less than attorney's fees.Chris Beck:Yeah. Typically, parenting time only we talked about, that's going to be around just over $150. And if you do a level two you're looking at more like $250 just-Seth Nelson:Per month?Chris Beck:That is per month. But we have different ways that you can actually send messages to the people that are associated with monitoring agreement, so the prices will vary a little bit. But I always recommend real-time results, and you can get those through emails that are sent 60 seconds after the monitor client takes the test. That's the most popular program we have, the one I always recommend that is needed in these types of cases.Seth Nelson:Couple hundred bucks a month. Go call your divorce attorney, ask him how much he is an hour. Or she.Pete Wright:Yeah. Incredible technology. It's deeply personal. I think back to... I've got a granddad who drank himself to death, that I never really got to meet, because he died of alcohol poisoning when I was two. I think about this technology and I think, "You know what, I'll be damned if he would probably have been here around for most of my life, had something like this existed at the time." It's a rough journey, and I know it is a big deal in our culture right now. Any technology that can keep us saving relationships, and saving lives is nothing to joke too much about. We sure appreciate you being here and educating us, Chris. Any final words you'd like to share?Chris Beck:I want to say thanks for having me both, Seth and Pete. It was a privilege. And if you do have any questions or your audience has any questions about our technology, they can go to www.soberlink.com. It is regarding family law. We have a specific family law section, but if it's just more about documenting your sobriety, individually, outside of family law, we do have a treatment side as well if they can click on.Pete Wright:Good service, everybody. Check it out. Links in the show notes. This has been fantastic. On behalf of the generous Chris Beck from Soberlink, and you know him, America's favorite family law attorney, Seth Nelson, I'm Pete Wright. We'll catch you next time right here on How to Split a Toaster, the divorce podcast about saving your relationships.Speaker 5:Seth Nelson is an attorney with Nelson Koster Family Law and Mediation, with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of Nelson Koster. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.