Emotional Capital: The Key to Thriving During and After Divorce with Alan Feigenbaum
In this season finale episode, Seth and Pete explore the concept of emotional capital in divorce with experienced matrimonial and family law attorney Al Feigenbaum. They dive into how preserving emotional well-being during and after a divorce is crucial for effective co-parenting and moving forward in life.
The conversation touches on the importance of attorneys being attuned to their clients' mental health, the impact of the pandemic on divorcing couples, and how lawyers' own emotional capital can be affected by their work. Al shares insights on managing difficult conversations with clients and the pitfalls of getting overly emotionally invested as a divorce attorney.
Questions we answer in this episode:
• What is emotional capital in the context of divorce?
• How can your emotional state impact divorce outcomes?
• What role should a divorce attorney play in addressing a client's mental health?
Key Takeaways:
• Preserving emotional capital is crucial for effective co-parenting post-divorce
• Attorneys need to be mindful of how their own communication can escalate emotions
• It's important for attorneys to set boundaries and manage difficult client conversations
This episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating a divorce who wants to understand the importance of emotional well-being in the process. Seth, Pete, and Al offer valuable perspectives on how to approach divorce in a way that prioritizes mental health and sets you up for a positive post-divorce future.
Links & Notes
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. Today we're going to try and give your toaster a love story.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to show everybody. I'm Seth Nelson. As always, I'm here with my good friend Pete Wright. Today marks the grand finale of our ninth season of the show and we are prepared to take our fall break, but we're taking some stock of one of the most important assets in your divorce, your emotional capital. Al, how do you say your last name? I'm just going to ask you.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Oh, go ahead. It's impossible, Feigenbaum. It's better to use the first part of it, Al. It's much easier.
Seth Nelson:
Good. Al, his experienced matrimonial family law attorney. Pete, you got two of us, and Andy doesn't protect you.
Pete Wright:
I know. It's the worst.
Seth Nelson:
Whose prime focus is maximization of his client's long-term post-divorce emotional capital, and he's here today to teach why love stories are so important in divorce. Al, I can't pronounce your last name, welcome to the toaster.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Thank you so much. Thank you.
Pete Wright:
Seth, I can't believe you want to open with such a pronunciation game.
Seth Nelson:
When I have my fault, I acknowledge them. I deal with them because I am concerned with my own personal emotional capital.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Yeah. What I would give to have a last name like Nelson. Life would've been a lot easier.
Seth Nelson:
Well, Al, look, you can change it.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Right.
Pete Wright:
You have the tools to change your name. [inaudible 00:01:41]
Alan Feigenbaum:
Right.
Pete Wright:
So we're talking about emotional capital today and we're talking about emotional capital all I think under the pretense of setting up a conversation about nonlinear love and the stuff that you're doing with your nonlinear love accounts, because I am very curious about how all of these things tie together for you in your work as a divorce attorney, a family law attorney. So let's start with emotional capital. Help us understand, how do you define emotional capital in the context of divorce and why do you believe it's such an essential component?
Alan Feigenbaum:
In the context of divorce I think it is when you exit the divorce process, whether it's through a settlement or a trial. It's being able to effectively co-parent and/or, even if you don't have children, leave the process without a continuing amount of angst that you feel day in and day out about your ex. So you could leave the process with a fabulous financial deal. Maybe you have a custody schedule that you're very proud of. However, if you carry around that energy and anger day in and day out about be it your ex spouse or the mother or father of your child or children, at least in my experience, that does not bode well for you long term.
Seth Nelson:
I just thought of something, Pete.
Pete Wright:
Sure.
Seth Nelson:
Because we've talked about this a lot and I appreciate this emotional capital, but I want to start with this. We said, "Look," and Al said it, "if you divorce with kids, then look, you got to have this because you got kids. But if you're divorced without kids, you still need it so you're exiting in a way that is healthy." Al, do you ever suggest in this emotional capital that after they get divorced, that then they have kids together?
Alan Feigenbaum:
I have not. That would be the first and I don't think I'm going to go there, Seth.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. All right. I'm just-
Alan Feigenbaum:
I'm not saying impossible. Anything's possible, but no, I have not.
Pete Wright:
You don't know if it works until you try. I'm just saying.
Alan Feigenbaum:
True. I'm not recommending that, those listening.
Seth Nelson:
All right, so we got a chicken on the show today, Pete, but that's fine.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Right? [inaudible 00:03:55]-
Pete Wright:
Acknowledged.
Alan Feigenbaum:
... change your mind, Seth.
Pete Wright:
This is the thing that's interesting to me because I think that when you talk about emotional capital and really this reservoir of divorce angst that you potentially could be carrying around, it implies that there is a finite amount of it. And that at some point you need it just to get through the divorce process. Do you find yourself attaching emotional capital, discussions of emotional capital with your clients in the context of legal strategy? Does it impact the way you approach a case?
Alan Feigenbaum:
It does impact the way I approach a case because I think while we're all out to make sure, just focusing on the money for a moment, that your client is going to be financially secure as they go forward in this new life, it's that question of, okay, you want financial security plus what or plus plus? And how far are you going to push to get that plus or plus plus? And when do you know to say, "You know what? It's time to draw the line here because if we keep doing it, then I'm going to start eroding your mental health." And look, there's a divergence, right? There are different divorce lawyers, there's one for everyone. I happen to be of the view that you always need to be cognizant of how, taking the temperature of your client's mental health. And yes, I'm not a therapist. We are not therapists. With that said, I think we owe it to our clients to show some humanity, and part of that-
Seth Nelson:
I don't owe them anything.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Oh, Seth, I'm happy to argue with you on this one.
Pete Wright:
No, no, no. He's just setting you up because we've talked a number of times about just the role, the attorney and counselor at law, and I think you're talking about the counselor part.
Alan Feigenbaum:
I am. And that does not mean that we should be spending hours on end on the phone acting as a pseudo therapist. I'm not saying that.
Pete Wright:
Your very expensive therapist.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Right. But with that said, when you can tell, and if you are paying attention and you're listening and you're observant, if you can tell that your client is, for lack of a better expression, falling apart in the moment, I think it behooves us not to just dismiss that and say, "Well, too bad, here we go, onto the next thing." I think it is important to listen, and that is a skill that is absolutely not taught in law school at all.
Seth Nelson:
That is a hundred percent true. They don't teach you a lot of stuff you need to know.
Alan Feigenbaum:
I'm still trying to figure out what it is that they taught me that I do need to know. But that's another topic of conversation. [inaudible 00:06:36]
Seth Nelson:
Wow.
Pete Wright:
Ouch.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Sorry.
Pete Wright:
Law school burnout.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Seth thought I was a chicken.
Seth Nelson:
No, let me tell you, that's a whole new podcast.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Yes it is.
Seth Nelson:
Shit they teach you in law school that you don't need to know.
Alan Feigenbaum:
I'm still trying to figure it out.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, that's great.
Pete Wright:
Okay, we're going to have to come back to that next season, I think. That's important. This is the thing that I'm interested in and especially because it hinges on some things Seth and I have talked about on and off the show over the years, is this idea of how you are expected to understand some of these more, let's say issues of humanity, as you said, in your job as the years go on, as culture evolves around us. Do you find that you're asked to be more sort of energetically aware than before, than say a decade ago?
Alan Feigenbaum:
I still think whether you're talking about divorce lawyers or lawyers in general, that we are woefully behind on the issue of mental health, that we still don't give it the credit that it's due and the attention that it deserves. So I still think we are behind the times, but when you talk about divorce cases and you start with the consult client, one of the questions I'm always starting with is, "Okay, is everyone in good health?" And the answer to that question, at least in New York, may impact certain things, including if spousal support is an issue. It can be a factor that a court might consider. When I ask that question, almost uniformly people only think about physical health. That's the only thing on their mind. But then I go to, "No, no, but also mental health." And sometimes for whatever reason, I would say more than half the time people are uncomfortable answering that when I first ask it. And then five minutes later something will come out where it's clear yes, there is a serious mental health issue somewhere in this family, and it can be relevant.
Seth Nelson:
Al, I'm going to ask you this question, and this is actually a serious one for a change, but do you think that a person's basic makeup of their personality is heightened during the divorce process? So for example, if someone is a little bit anxious, they're heightened, they're going to be hyper anxious. If they are watching every dime, they're going to watch every penny. Do you see those personality traits go to the extreme?
Alan Feigenbaum:
I do. However, I think part of the reason for that is how the person's lawyer is communicating. So if the tone of the emails or the letters or the phone calls or what's said in court appearances, if you're escalating the emotional temperature, putting aside the legal temperature, there's a much-
Seth Nelson:
As the lawyer?
Alan Feigenbaum:
Yes. I happen to think that there is a greater likelihood that those personality traits will be exacerbated. Maybe not necessarily on their own, but if the person that is acting is your agent so to speak, is pounding the table for lack of a better expression, then yes, I think at least from what I see, there's a greater likelihood that those personality traits, be they insecurities or something else, are going to go through the roof.
Pete Wright:
On the subject of humanity, how does your client's emotional capital impact you as a lawyer and your emotional capital in managing the case?
Alan Feigenbaum:
It's hard, and I try not to... Look, there are some divorce lawyers who say, "Look, who cares? It's a job. I just show up to my job and I do what I do. Then I go home and it has no impact on me." I personally can't relate to that. I don't know how this doesn't affect you to some degree. I think each of us has to work individually as far as how we process it. On most days I'm able to go home and I'm able to process it. However, there are other days where I'm not very good at it. Typically, it's when you have very difficult custody issues that you're faced with where you might see neglect or abuse of children, that can really weigh heavily on you. And separately, even if we're not talking about custody, if we're talking about finance, people think, oh the money, why would you get emotional about that?
Actually, in my experience, I've seen people get more emotional about the money side than the custody side. And look, when you spend a chunk of your day listening to people crying, I would think it would have some impact on you. Again, each of us has to learn individually how to process it, but at least in my experience, especially after the pandemic, I think that that did a lot of damage to people. I know that's a broad statement, but at least for people going through the divorce process and relationships that were already kind of on the cliff so to speak, those folks, I've seen a lot more emotion from them than I did for example, before the lockdown period.
Pete Wright:
Seth, I don't think I ever asked you that question. What's your perspective on that?
Seth Nelson:
As I was talking about that, I don't know if it's more emotional after COVID and the lockdown than before, mainly because it was so crazy trying cases on Zoom within... I mean our courts in Hillsborough County, the 13th judicial circuit did an amazing job. I mean, I think we were trying cases on Zoom within 30 to 60 days into the lockdown. It was fast, and so that kind of kept the wheels going, of justice. So I don't know if I've seen that, but it wouldn't surprise me at all. So I think it's a good point.
Pete Wright:
But to the broader question of your own humanity, how do you feel like you are impacted? Your emotional capital is impacted by trying cases and your client's relationships, Seth. I'm curious about that.
Seth Nelson:
Well, I have a cold stone where my heart's supposed to be, Pete,
Pete Wright:
Where it should be?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. No, I am a terrible, terrible multitasker. I don't think anyone really can do it. People say they can. I can only focus on one thing at a time and do it well. So I think that helps me because when I take a break and my son calls me from college, I am all in on that. And if I'm in the middle of something, I'll tell him, "Hey, I'm in the middle," because I'm not giving him the attention. And I'd rather tell him I can't talk right now because I don't want to give him 40% of my time and attention in my mind and thinking. So I think that helps me when I go home. Now listen, we all have those bad days. We all have those cases where you're frustrated, where you put a great offer on the table to settle, you're trying to solve problems, and you get something that's horrible back and it frustrates you.
And then I have the really, really bad cases with kids and those are the ones that can get to you a bit. But those are the ones when I go home and talk to my wife and she says, "How was your day?" I'm like, This is one of those days you told me don't tell you about." So it does impact, I think. But because I can just kind of focus on what I'm focused on, I do a lot of turning my phone off and having it on silent and checking it in an hour and see what's come in and then go back.
Alan Feigenbaum:
The phone is a huge issue. For me, separating the work phone from the personal phone is one of the best things I ever did.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, that's a good point. I don't do that.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Being able to exercise in the morning without seeing the emails and text messages coming through on what had been a combined phone was life-changing for me. So you talk about preserving my own emotional capital, having my workout to myself, even though that's just 45 minutes in the morning is tremendous.
Pete Wright:
I'm just a poor country podcaster and I find I'm impacted. My emotional capital is impacted by just navigating the stories that I hear and talk about on a daily basis. So I have to imagine this is really hard. The reason I want to talk about that and hear each of you talk about that is because I think what better time than our last episode of the ninth season to talk about how your emotional capital can be contagious. When you are approaching, when you're working to get divorced, how does your own emotional wellbeing impact the people you're going to be working with? Not just your attorney, but your mediator, your judge, whoever it is that you're dealing with.
Alan Feigenbaum:
So for that, I would say, "Look, as the lawyer, you are not getting divorced. You are not divorcing your client's spouse." So with that in mind, while I understand that yes, you're supposed to be the zealous advocate for your client, and you should be, I think you have to be very cognizant of how far you take that and are you getting to the point where now you sound like you're going through your own divorce with your client's spouse. You reach that point, and I do think a number of divorce lawyers do, you're going to start making requests for relief, what have you, that just they don't make sense. They're going to escalate legal fees and in the end, there's going to be no value that you can give to your client.
Seth Nelson:
Bringing value to your client is so important. And sometimes, Pete, the answer to the question of what should I do is, do nothing. It's literally do nothing. And people don't like that. They feel like they have to act, right? And that's the problem. And then the lawyer's like, "Oh, well maybe I can stretch this a little bit," but you shouldn't be stretching that, and that's the problem.
Alan Feigenbaum:
And I think on that point, understandably, especially in this field, clients want answers. But a lot of times the questions that are asked a certain amount of thought before you can give a solid answer, in my view. And so that might mean that you can be in the context of a very difficult emotional conversation with a client and they want an answer right now. But you need to have the confidence, I think, to say, "I need to think this over and I think it's best that we end the phone call now. We'll regroup, whether it's in an hour, two hours. Those are the civilized conversations.
When you're dealing with someone who might be screaming at you on the phone, and that happens also, there is no uniform way to do this. The way I do it at this point is just to say, "Look, this is not productive. This is not helpful. Let's just end this phone call now. We need to take a break and then let's regroup." But at least for me, I think you have to be firm about that because if you say it and then just allow it to continue, you're going down a bad path.
Seth Nelson:
That's a really good point about ending the phone calls. That is not easy to do.
Alan Feigenbaum:
It's not. And again, it's not being rude. It's just saying, "Look, listen to what's being said on this phone call. We're not going to a good place."
Seth Nelson:
It could be rude on how you end the phone call.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Look, hanging up the phone is for sure rude. I don't do that.
Seth Nelson:
I don't do that either. I just say, "We got disconnected."
Alan Feigenbaum:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. And listen, my wife knows I do this. She'll be talking-
Alan Feigenbaum:
Got it. So it's out there.
Seth Nelson:
She'll be talking, I'll be like, "What? Can't hear you," and just hang up. And then she'll call back or I'll call back, she goes, "You hung up on me, didn't you?" And I'm like, "I'm taking the fifth."
Pete Wright:
Tunnel. Tunnel.
Seth Nelson:
She's like, "We don't live in New York. You're not going to Jersey."
Pete Wright:
I want to connect it back to, or pivot at least a bit, I want to pivot to financial impact of emotional dysregulation. How have you seen emotional capital impact financial outcomes?
Alan Feigenbaum:
Why don't we talk about personal property a bit?
Seth Nelson:
Oh my God. No.
Alan Feigenbaum:
As much as I don't want to.
Seth Nelson:
No.
Pete Wright:
Al.
Seth Nelson:
How did he get on the show?
Pete Wright:
It's already affecting Seth-
Seth Nelson:
Where's Andy?
Alan Feigenbaum:
I know.
Seth Nelson:
Where's Andy?
Alan Feigenbaum:
Look at this. [inaudible 00:19:04].
Seth Nelson:
Literally my head is bald and turning red.
Alan Feigenbaum:
See? It worked. It worked. I knew I touched on something. Look, you have to be, again, I think it's important to be sensitive. Most of me wants to tell people when you get into these arguments, that when it comes to personal property, you can't take it with you. The personal story that I derived from this, when my mother-in-law passed away, we had most of the contents in her home and another state moved up to where we lived. And we thought, okay, everyone's going to want to collect some of the contents, including my wife's family members, et cetera. And really other than a very few specific items, nothing was taken. Just from that experience, I see it just... I know it might-
Seth Nelson:
No, that's a good point.
Alan Feigenbaum:
... appear important in the moment, but it absolutely isn't. And yet I still see this whether it is, and I'm going to give you some real extremes. I mean, you might just think like sofas, right? Okay. But when I see people arguing over who gets to keep the marital bed, why you would want to have that as a reminder in your post-divorce life, I have no idea.
Seth Nelson:
Especially when he cheated on you in the bed.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Which happens. Right. And just taking it even further, I thought about this. Arguments when you have grown children to argue over the toys they played with when they were children. They happened to be in your children's rooms. They mean nothing to your kids anymore, yet somehow this is a vehicle to kind of channel that angst between two spouses. I've not seen a dispute over personal property go to a good place.
Seth Nelson:
What have some of your judges done on this? I love this topic actually, Pete. I was joking before.
Alan Feigenbaum:
They do not, understandably do not want, to deal with it unless we are talking about disposition of a valuable, let's say art collection, where you've got appraisals and whatnot. I've done hearings on that. I understand. Okay, if you've got a multimillion dollar art collection and there's an argument over who gets which piece, and there are hundreds of pieces, works of art, I understand. But as far as the personal property goes, I would dare would not dare bring that up with a judge.
Seth Nelson:
Al, I've been in a pretrial conference. Pete, a pretrial conference is before trial, the judge wants to run smooth. You're going to have a meeting with the judges and say, "Okay, what can we agree on? What are we going to stipulate to? How are we going to work the evidence? We want a clean, clean trial." You don't want to get in there and be arguing about stuff, delaying the presentation of evidence and personal property comes up. And I had a judge look down and said, "For judicial economy, anything that you guys do not agree upon by the date of trial, the morning of trial will be delivered to Goodwill and dropped off."
Alan Feigenbaum:
Donation. It's a great outlet. I agree with that.
Seth Nelson:
And I need to know. Trial would start on Monday. I need to know by Friday whether we're starting at 9:00 or starting at 10:00 because you guys are going to Goodwill. Friday at four o'clock when your lawyers are required to tell me what's happening, then I'm going to say when we're starting. And when we start, personal property will not be on the list. Figure it out.
Alan Feigenbaum:
That's a blunt instrument right there.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, it was great. And so what I did is I told my client not to settle and I set up a sign outside my office that just said Goodwill. So it all came here, Pete.
Pete Wright:
That painting behind you is gorgeous.
Seth Nelson:
Let me tell you. Let me tell you. Al, isn't that just ridiculous what people fight over though?
Alan Feigenbaum:
It is. You want to be sensitive, right? But I have had to say many times as politely as I can, "For these reasons, I'm not bringing this up to a judge. That's just not what the courts are for."
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, you probably say it nicer than I do. I say, "Do you want to lose those items? Because if you do, have me mention it."
Alan Feigenbaum:
Yeah, we can bring that up, right?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Have me mention it.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Just the idea that, okay, look, I don't know, we spent $20,000 on this wonderful sofa and now it's 15 years later. How valuable could this thing be?
Seth Nelson:
Al, how do they value that in New York? In Florida, it's garage sale value, so that makes it easy. How about New York?
Alan Feigenbaum:
I have not done that with couches, but you would get an appraisal. You would get an appraisal and I can't-
Pete Wright:
You have to get an appraisal for a 15-year-old couch?
Alan Feigenbaum:
If you want it, go ahead.
Seth Nelson:
My conversation with them is, "How much do you think it's worth?" And they give me all these numbers. I said, "Nope. Now garage sale value," and they're like, "Oh," even though I've told them that before. And then I ask them, "How much am I an hour? You can go buy new that's nicer." And sometimes they're like, "I just don't want them to have it." And I'm like, "And that's not what I do for a living. That's not what I do for a living." And that's to Al's point.
Pete Wright:
Exactly. And that's also the point of emotional capital. What are you spending yours on? You're choosing to spend it on bitterness. You're choosing to spend it on vindication.
Seth Nelson:
And some lawyers will tell you, "I have to zealotly advocate. That's a client decision. If they want to fight for it, I'm going to go fight for it." I respect that. That is your creed, but it also says that you're not required to represent these clients. So I'll tell them. For example, there are some issues that constantly come up in family law. And if it's an issue that I know I have a personal bias on, I'll tell my client, "I have a bias on this issue." And I tell them what my bias is, what my opinion is on this. And I'll tell them, "You do not want me arguing this in court. You do not want me doing it and I'm not going to do it, and because I can't hide my emotion on this and I am not going to be persuasive for your ultimate goal and outcome. I am not your guy." And I just let them know it.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Look, in many instances in this practice, I don't like cliches, but you need to think outside the box. So I can recall a matter where there was a vehement dispute over a painting and it turned out that one party knew the artist. So I just said to the client, "Call the artist, see if you can get another one," and they could. Issue resolved. I mean this ridiculous painting holding up resolution of an otherwise very complicated case.
Pete Wright:
I want to pivot a little bit as we get close to our end here and talk about non-linear love and what you're doing with that because it's fascinating. And I'd like to know first, tell our listeners what it is and how you, the divorce lawyer, decided this is a thing we're going to do.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Sure. I read an op-ed, I think the modern love op-ed in the Sunday Style section of the New York Times in June of 2023, I believe it was. The op-ed was written by Ariella Steinhorn. She's a writer and author. Her expertise had been in the whistleblower area and relationship dynamics. If I read something that I find interesting, I typically reach out to the authors. I love to read. I reached out to her. We ultimately connected and started talking about how to collaborate. And we published a piece in the Boston Globe at the end of last year about how to divorce better in 2024. And the whole impetus of the project is trying to lessen the seriousness and ultimately the conflict that is around breakups and divorce, which I think in many instances is kind of culturally influenced.
And the way we thought about doing that was to collect kind of raw, unedited, uncurated stories. They could be romance stories, divorce, breakup, and share them in a venue where nobody's judging you. And also just there's this great emphasis in our culture, I think, on how to make sure that marriages last. Just all the things you can do, the steps you can take. I mean the podcast after podcast on making sure that your marriage keeps going. And just inherently these relationships break, whether they're marital or not. And so this project is kind of saying just accept that and stop trying to constantly put a bandaid on everything. And then perhaps when they do break, there won't be as much chaos and conflict.
Pete Wright:
Has that changed? Has the act of collecting these stories changed the way you think about your practice?
Alan Feigenbaum:
Well, I would say it does in the sense of I can relate more to the stories that I hear from clients. And I also am trying to bring, hold the point to clients that... Let me put it this way, I hear a lot that, especially in longer term relationships in marriage, unfortunately when the divorce happens, there tends to be a thought of this whole thing was a disaster. The whole marriage, every aspect of it was horrible, which is a difficult emotion to deal with day to day. And I'm trying to say, "Well no, actually there was kind of one event that may have occurred, maybe recent in time, that was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back. But before that, you had a good relationship and you've raised these beautiful children and look at how they've grown up." And I get it, that's not what divorce lawyers are programmed to focus on, but I think it's worth pointing that out so that instead... Versus waking up every day and just carrying around hatred.
Seth Nelson:
Well, Al, it's very interesting the way you say that because I never will tell them, "Well, you had some good times," because they're going to tell me, "No I didn't," or whatever. But what I do ask them, I said, "I just got a question for you on this. If walking down the aisle or signing the marriage license, you knew where you would be today with your kids and your grandkids, but going through this shit nightmare of a divorce, but you had all these other things, would've you done it?" They all say yes, because it goes to, look, I've got my kids, I've got my grandkids. I don't have to argue whether they had a good or bad relationship.
Pete Wright:
It's really interesting. Where do you share these stories? Where do they go?
Alan Feigenbaum:
They're being shared on our Instagram page at the moment, which is @nonlinearlovestories. We launched that on Valentine's Day of 2024. I figured that was fitting.
Pete Wright:
Adorable.
Alan Feigenbaum:
And it's still in process and growing.
Pete Wright:
Well, it's great, and I know you can share those love stories with you. Anyone who wants to share those love stories go to nonlinearlove.com
Alan Feigenbaum:
[inaudible 00:30:51] if you want?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, bring it in. I think it's really interesting to sort of recontextualize the fact that love stories don't all have to be meet cutes. And that some love stories actually end in divorce, and that's okay too.
Seth Nelson:
Because they were lovers over time and now they're deciding to walk the world in a different way. That's okay.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Hundred percent.
Pete Wright:
That's why we save your relationships on this podcast. We're not telling you which relationships. Some of them are going to end.
Seth Nelson:
That's right.
Alan Feigenbaum:
But also, look, if you're stuck in a toxic marriage, divorce is probably a damn good thing. I don't think that we should societally be saying like, "No, you should stick with that. Be perpetually miserable."
Pete Wright:
Al, thanks so much for being here. We sure appreciate-
Alan Feigenbaum:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
... your time. Besides Nonlinear Love, any place else you want to send people to learn more about you and your work?
Alan Feigenbaum:
Sure. I'm a partner at Blank Rome. I'm here in Manhattan. You can find me on the internet, along with all the articles that I write every month in the New York Law Journal. If you hate them, you can write letters to the editor as well. Some people do. Other than that, you can find me on Instagram @alrichard_f. F, as in Frank. That way you don't have to deal with the last name.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, he didn't even say his last name.
Alan Feigenbaum:
And you all can fine me on LinkedIn.
Seth Nelson:
I'm vindicated.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Right.
Pete Wright:
Vindicated. Goodness. Well, we sure appreciate it and thank you so much for your time, Al Feigenbaum.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Thank you.
Seth Nelson:
I got to tell you, Pete, it's nice to have a really smart lawyer on the show for a change.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
It's really good.
Pete Wright:
Is it though?
Seth Nelson:
It is. I feel better about it.
Pete Wright:
I need to say one thing. I was going to save this for after the show, but I need to say one thing about just how classy Al Feigenbaum is. Because I'm looking at him on video right now and he has a portrait hanging behind him that I covet deeply as a massive Prince fan myself. That is [inaudible 00:32:49] outstanding, Al.
Seth Nelson:
Can't beat it. Cannot beat it.
Pete Wright:
Cannot beat it. Well played, sir. And now we have to turn our attention to listener questions. All right, so we have, and I think it's no longer unprecedented, it is slightly precedented, our guest has stuck around for our listener question segments. We've got a couple that we're going to bring up today. I want to start with the one that is Florida centric as you-
Seth Nelson:
Okay. Good.
Pete Wright:
... are a practicing attorney in Tampa.
Seth Nelson:
He can't tell me I'm wrong on that one.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
That's good.
Pete Wright:
Right, so I'm starting off with an easy one just to get points on the board. Coming in from the website, how does the Greyson law, Greyson's Law, help people who have already gone through the courts and the evidence was not submitted. Seth.
Seth Nelson:
That's brutal. It's not just Grayson's law. It is anytime that there's any law or any evidence that was not submitted to the court and that you knew about at the time was discoverable, then in that case is done and you are going to have an almost impossible time, what's called reopening the evidence. So if you knew about it and you didn't present it, the rules of procedure, how you take the case through the court system, that case is done. We're not opening up the courthouse door for something that you knew or should have known about previously. In everything in the law, there's always exceptions to the rule. So check with your local jurisdiction and your lawyer that practices have your case reviewed specifically for what you're talking about because there are narrow exceptions to that. This is not going to be helpful from the emotional side. If something is going on now that is putting that child at risk with Greyson's law, that would be something that I would also talk to your lawyer about it. "Can I bring it up now?" Not just maybe I knew about it then, especially if it's seriously dangerous.
Pete Wright:
Okay. Now a little bit broader. This one's a little long. "Hi Seth and Pete and Al. My question pertains to assets income. In my divorce. We are still trying to work through what support will be, but also how to split assets."
Seth Nelson:
Good.
Pete Wright:
"My lawyer and I believe 50/50 with assets since we live in Wisconsin, which is a marital property state. Opposing counsel is saying that we are double dipping. His paycheck is deposited to an account we feel should be split 50/50. His lawyer is saying we are double dipping. Aren't paychecks deposited ultimately viewed as assets thereafter? I was a homemaker for the majority of our marriage and never contributed a paycheck to this account. Where do we draw the line? When do the income deposits actually become assets that we can divide?"
Seth Nelson:
Have at it, Al.
Alan Feigenbaum:
I'm a little perplexed. So the paychecks are, let's say being deposited into a joint account and that account will be allocated in the divorce proceeding. Is the person submitting this question saying that independent of the funds and the joint account, I want to treat the monies that are tied in paychecks as a separate asset?
Seth Nelson:
Al, you don't get to ask the questioner what they're asking. You got to figure it out. He's new to the game, Pete. He's new to the game.
Alan Feigenbaum:
But Seth. It's ridiculous. Okay, you divide the account. There is no separate-
Seth Nelson:
That's right.
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... imaginary asset reflecting the paychecks that you deposited. It's what's in the account. End of discussion.
Seth Nelson:
So in New York, that seems to be the answer. In Florida, that would be the answer as well, because this is a post filing deposit. So post filing earnings in Florida are non-marital, but right when you deposited it into account that was marital, you've commingled it. Money is fungible. You can't tell $1 from the other. I would be making the argument this account should be divided equally. Now I know a lot about Wisconsin, went to college in Wisconsin, my great grandfather immigrated to Wisconsin. I even own one share of the Packers, but Pete, I don't know the answer.
Pete Wright:
How are you on divorce law?
Seth Nelson:
I don't know the answer to this question in Wisconsin. Check with your local jurisdiction.
Pete Wright:
Okay, got it. Next question. Can I be forced to use a breathalyzer?
Seth Nelson:
Yes, it can be ordered. Can the judge sit there and make you blow? No. Can he put you in jail for not doing so? Yes. And we've had people, Chris from Soberlink on our show and yeah, if you want to see your kids, you got to have a choice to make. Al, do you agree with that?
Alan Feigenbaum:
Same here. No, same here, pursuant to court order and hopefully look, you don't find yourself in that situation having to seek that relief, but as divorce lawyers, most if not all of us have had that come up.
Seth Nelson:
And he means for the lawyers, Pete, not for our clients.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
To be very clear lawyers.
Pete Wright:
[inaudible 00:37:54] always.
Seth Nelson:
I have to blow every time I go into court.
Pete Wright:
By time you go into court. Zoom won't open unless it gets a good result. Yeah, I get it. Okay, last question for us and this one I am going to add that I think it's referring to tax implications.
Seth Nelson:
Okay.
Pete Wright:
What are the repercussions of changing or delaying the filing of my divorce? Do we save money in any way by filing in a certain time of year?
Seth Nelson:
I have an answer to that. You want me to take it, Al or you want to go first?
Alan Feigenbaum:
Sure. From a tax perspective?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Yeah. So here's the only one that I have on that. If you relatively close to the end of the year then, and I'm putting relatively close in quotes, whatever that might be. I've had it be six months. We have settled a case. We've gone to court and said, "Judge, we have a marital settlement agreement, we have a parenting plan and we are done." And the judge goes, "Great, upload the final judgment." And we said, "Judge, we want to upload it in January because the parties want to file married joint for the current year and they can only file married joint for the current year if they're married as of December 31st at midnight. So we got to wait. But can you save money is the key part to this question. And the question is, it depends.
You got to look at what your filing status would be: married single, married joint, separate. And then if you have any, for example, tax loss carry forwards, how are you going to divide those up? There's a lot of intricacies if you're asking this question. How are you going to deal with business income? Are you going to have to get an extension because you're not going to be ready by the normal date, so you want to do it in October? But definitely talk with your tax preparer or your accountant and your advisors and then check with your local jurisdiction. Al, anything to add?
Alan Feigenbaum:
Talk to your tax professional. But also I'll just say that if that's the biggest issue, if that's the only thing that's kind of going on in dispute, you're in a good spot. I wish that was the only issue that I had to deal with, but it most certainly is not. Yes, there are a lot of tax issues surrounding divorce, but if the only thing that's really going on between you and what's going to be your ex is, gee, when should we file the next tax return?" God bless.
Pete Wright:
A fair and grounded perspective, Al. Thank you for that and thanks for sticking around for questions. This has been great.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Absolutely.
Pete Wright:
Thank you.
Alan Feigenbaum:
Appreciate it.
Seth Nelson:
I know this was great. What a great win in the season.
Pete Wright:
I love it. Thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. Thank you for submitting your questions. Even though we're going to be taking a little break, you're going to get some reruns in the feed for the next couple months while we get ourselves sorted for season 10. Oh my goodness. Did you ever think-
Seth Nelson:
Pete, we're coming up on my bar mitzvah season? I'm very excited. Before you know it [inaudible 00:40:59] we'll be at 13.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Oh good. I get gifts for your bar mitzvah? Is that at Bar Mitzvah? That's that how it work?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
No, I don't know anything.
Seth Nelson:
It does now.
Pete Wright:
Outstanding. Go to HowtoSplitaToaster.com. A couple of ways to ask questions. You can push the button that says submit a question that comes directly to us. There's now the box that's floating on the website. You can just type a question right in there and it will get back to us. If it's a question that we haven't talked about, we would love to do so. Please, please, please keep them coming over the break. Thank you, Al Feigenbaum, for your time today and as ever, thanks to Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney. I'm Pete Wright. We'll see you next season right here on How to Split a Toaster, a Divorce Podcast about saving your relationships.
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How to Split a Toaster is part of the TruStory FM podcast network produced by Andy Nelson. Music, by T. Bless and the Professionals and DB Studios. Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
