Divorce and Your Kids: Understanding the Impact and Helping Them Cope with Cathy Himlin
In this episode of How to Split a Toaster, Seth and Pete dive into the challenging topic of how divorce impacts children. They're joined by special guest Cathy Himlin, a reunification/conjoint family therapist, to discuss the child-centered approach in divorce parenting and what parents need to know to maintain a healthy connection with their kids.
Seth, Pete, and Cathy explore how parents' grief, anxiety, and emotions during the divorce process can affect children. They discuss the concept of "emotional contagion" and how kids pick up on and model their parents' behavior and feelings. Cathy shares insights from her work in court-involved family therapy, explaining how she helps children who have rejected a parent due to the emotional fallout of divorce.
Questions we answer in this episode:
How do my emotions during divorce impact my children?
What can I do to help my kids cope with the changes and stress of divorce?
How can therapy assist in repairing the parent-child relationship after a divorce?
Key Takeaways:
Be mindful of how your emotions and behaviors affect your children during divorce
Focus on your children's needs and create a safe space for them to express their feelings
Seeking professional help, like reunification therapy, can be crucial in maintaining and repairing parent-child bonds
Throughout the episode, Seth, Pete, and Cathy provide valuable advice and strategies for parents navigating the challenges of divorce with their children. They emphasize the importance of validating children's emotions, offering sincere apologies when necessary, and consistently working to maintain a strong, supportive parent-child relationship.
This episode is a must-listen for any parent going through a divorce who wants to better understand their child's perspective and learn practical ways to help them cope with the emotional impact of this significant life change.
Plus, we answer a listener question about social investigations!
Links & Notes
Learn more about Cathy at Himlin Consulting
Got a question you want to ask on the show? Click here!
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from True Story FM. Today we're teaching your young toasters how to love again.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everybody. I'm Seth Nelson and I'm here as always with my good friend Pete Wright. Today we're talking about your kids. Kids are resilient, they say, and while that might be true, that doesn't mean that the divorce process is easy on them. How does your grief and anxiety as the divorcing parent impact your kids? How are your emotions contagious to their young systems? Our guest this week is Cathy Himlin, a reunification conjoint family therapist. She joins us to talk about the child center approach and divorced parenting and what parents need to know about the healthy connection to their kids. Cathy, welcome to the Toaster.
Cathy Himlin:
Hi. Thank you.
Pete Wright:
Cathy, we have talked about a little bit about kids on the show, as you can imagine, the child-centered approach, but this was the first time.
Seth Nelson:
It's so overrated, enough of these kids already.
Pete Wright:
Enough, we're so done with kids. Awful. No, but-
Seth Nelson:
I think on all divorces you should be required to put your kids up for adoption.
Pete Wright:
Just sell them with the house. Is that how it works?
Seth Nelson:
You don't sell them, Pete. Give them away.
Pete Wright:
Oh, you attorneys. Look, this was the first time that I had heard reunification slash conjoint therapy. That's a new term to me. I'm kind of a rube on this show, so that's not a surprise, but I'm really curious to hear what it is that you do. But let's start back a little bit. How does parents' grief and struggle and anxiety impact the kiddos?
Cathy Himlin:
Of course, the divorce process is so emotional, right? And I work with high conflict divorces, so those are even harder on parents when they're emotional as in intact families, a parent's emotional, your child's going to feel it and going to react. So if you've got a parent who's going through a lot of litigation, fighting, just nastiness between the two parents and the attorneys, no offense, Seth, when that happens-
Seth Nelson:
I don't build them. I just fly them.
Cathy Himlin:
Okay. Then the kids are exposed to it. Even if the parents try really, really hard, they just walk into a room and they don't seem like they're doing okay. They're not coming across as they used to before they were going through this situation. And so, if they feel depressed, the children feel that sadness. It distances them from their parents. So if the parent's really caught up in their own emotions, that can really cause a rift in the relationship and in the home and cause even more tension. And then on top of that, the children don't have that parent that used to show up for them emotionally present because they're so caught up in their own trauma or just the upset of what's going on in the divorce. Not necessarily real trauma, but it is traumatizing for most parents to go through a high-conflict divorce.
Seth Nelson:
Right, and Cathy, this is why I give the following advice to all clients. Easy to say, difficult to do. Live your life, not your divorce.
Cathy Himlin:
That's nice.
Seth Nelson:
Because when you have those dinners with the kids, the weekends with the kids, picking them up from school, the text messages, whatever it may be, you don't get that time back. And if you make the decision to spend that time with your kids focused on your divorce and not focused on them, not only are you losing that time, which by the way you're fighting for in court, but you're also drawing them into your divorce even though you don't mean to.
Cathy Himlin:
Exactly.
Pete Wright:
This is the interesting-
Seth Nelson:
Great show. Thank you.
Pete Wright:
We're done. You guys, at least you agree, right? That's all we need in this crazy, mixed up world.
Seth Nelson:
Before Pete says something that I say, and then Cathy agrees with Pete and then it goes downhill.
Pete Wright:
Not even, I'm legitimately curious about this because as couples you're in a long relationship... And I'll just speak for myself. My wife and I, I think we are a little bit emotionally contagious to one another. We've known each other a long time, we're very empathetic to one another. And when my wife comes home after a really hard day at work, I feel that and I can, if I'm not kind of aware of it, I could pick it up. I'm like, "Well, she's pissed. I guess I should be pissed too." Or, "She's sad, why is she sad? That makes me sad." I mean, it's weird stuff.
So it should be no surprise that our kiddos pick up on that too. We have very close relationships with them ideally, right? They start to read, they're already reading and modeling our own behavior. Why should they not pick up our general sense of the world? Is there anything that shows kids who are in high conflict divorces are appreciably impacted in this way? Is there data to back up my dumb guy assessment?
Cathy Himlin:
There's a lot of data across the board in attachment therapy and I'm sure in different organizations that do research. I mean, it's just a thing. As a therapist, we know parents' emotions impact children and so therefore if the parents are really, really upset in a divorce, it's going to trickle down to the kiddos. So, emotions are contagious. You could just look at it that way. And any emotion, you come home angry, the children feel it, your spouse or your partner feels it. You come home sad, you feel it. So you go to a grocery store and a grocery store clerk, not to pick on them, I used to be one a long time ago, is grumpy. You're going to go and I got to get out of this line really quick. So just emotions are contagious.
Pete Wright:
You leave the store with eggs and generalized anxiety disorder. That's why. But this is where-
Seth Nelson:
That's why I go to self-checkout now. I don't want to deal with it. I don't want to talk about the weather.
Pete Wright:
That's right.
Seth Nelson:
Right.
Pete Wright:
No, it fits your vibe, the whole vibe. You're a very self-checkout guy. You can really read that. This is the sort of follow on is like what does that do to a kid who hasn't addressed it say five years down the road, 10 years down the road? What is their relationship, their ability to form relationships? How are they impacted?
Cathy Himlin:
I mean we model for our kids. So everything we do and say and just how we present is more loud so to speak than what we say. So whatever we're as children observing what our parents are doing, it's going to impact them and it can in a lot of different ways. And part of not dealing with things, not dealing with emotions, not giving a label to what the children are going through or checking in with them and making sure they're okay, that's what causes some of these problems when they reject parents. And to answer the question, you said originally conjoint reunification could also be reconciliation therapy. It's all the same. It's just each county and state calls it something different. It's just basically court involved family therapy. And for me, I specialize with the children who reject their parents, when a lot of times there's seemingly no abuse or domestic violence or substance use that you would think there'd be some solid reason why they reject the parent.
Pete Wright:
Well, I think you just answered my question in spades. How has the kid impacted? Well, it could be they just reject their parents, one or both parents, right? I'm very curious about your work there. How do you begin? I'm totally monopolizing this question, Seth. So as an attorney please tell me when I no longer please the court.
Seth Nelson:
No good. I was going to kick back, put my feet up, crack a beer. We're good. Keep going. Pete. We're fine.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, good. We're doing fine. How does your work start with a kid who has been compromised enough that they have rejected a parent?
Cathy Himlin:
I've developed a four stage model to this because I think that if we don't focus on what the children are needing in that moment and where they're at developmentally and their perception of what's happening, we're going to lose them. So, what I do is if we're talking about the conjoint or the reunification... And please not to get confused with that reunification camp stuff, this is nothing to do with that, but that's getting confused in the media right now, the word reunification, it's different. There's no forcing going on here.
It's very child centered in that in the first stage, for instance, in conjoint therapy, I bring a child in and I just try to find out why are they rejecting the parent? What are they upset at? What do they want differently basically in either home? And give them a voice, teach them that this is a safe space. They can take breaks anytime they want. So I build a lot of safety and I make them feel in control of the process as much as they can be. They may not want to be there, but they can choose where a parent sits, they can choose who speaks.
Seth Nelson:
That's my first question, Cathy. How do you get the parent to talk to the kid to get the kid in the car to come see you?
Cathy Himlin:
The one who's the primary caretaker or the custodial sometimes, right?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, the non-parent that they rejected for the time being because sometimes they'll reject one parent and then they'll turn around and reject the other parent and they'll play that game. So, in the moment, how do you get the kid even to show up?
Cathy Himlin:
Well, that's one of the hardest pieces. If they can get them there, easier for me. I try to talk to both parents though and explain my process. So if I can show both parents that this is a safe place, then they will give that information to the child, then they'll have an easier time. And I'm not on very many cases where the child refuses to get in a car. It really depends on the age too. You can encourage them, but it really usually has to do with the parent's attitude about the whole process. So I try to help with that and educate, have a whole bunch of, I have FAQs and discuss exactly... I'm very transparent how this all works and how their children will be safe. Nothing bad's going to happen, so that helps reduce that issue.
Pete Wright:
When you referred to it, I think you said court ordered family therapy?
Cathy Himlin:
Or court involved.
Pete Wright:
Court involved.
Cathy Himlin:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
What is the extent to court involved? I mean, specifically to Seth's question about getting the kid in the car, to what extent is the court involved?
Cathy Himlin:
Well, usually for my cases, a majority of them are court ordered, so they're going to be required sometimes for me to write a treatment summary or to testify to report as the treating therapist what's happening on the case and whether we're making progress or not. So that's the court involvement. They're usually in a custody dispute of some sort either in a divorce or just a custody dispute or both.
Pete Wright:
So the court involvement doesn't consist of putting the kid in the car?
Cathy Himlin:
No.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Well, the deal with this, Pete, is that as you know our judges that we've had on here have been overworked, too many cases, not enough support staff, and they get a case like this where a kid's just not going to one parent's house and they can order therapy. Now, this therapy is not protected under the patient therapy privilege anymore. It's court ordered. So the judge wants to know who's doing what. You're going to find out. So when we say court involvement, it's more for status check-ins, are we making progress, are we not, if not, why? If so, good, keep it up.
If we're not making progress, who's the problem? And Cathy knows you don't go in and say, "This person's the problem," you just say it much more delicately or specifically on, "Well, here's the advice that I gave. Here's what didn't happen." You just stick to the facts, right? You lose adjectives in your discussions. But that's the type of court involvement that we'll see in these cases. The problem, just like you know, when you have your own household and you're trying to organize schedules, now you got two lawyers, two parties, a judge and a mental health professional. It's hard getting that courtroom time.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, well, courtroom time and I imagine the therapy time. When you think about these two parties, the two separating parents, what is the... Well, let me take a step back before I ask that question. What would be the trigger for parents to be court ordered to go into this sort of court ordered therapy? Who is usually instigating this kind of a relationship?
Cathy Himlin:
Either parent could ask for it. I've seen both sides ask for it or the judge just orders it because they're tired of how things have been going and the child still hasn't seen the kiddo. On a rare occasion, I get people outside of the court asking for this kind of therapy. It's the same pretty much, except that I'm not going to be put on a stand potentially. So, it depends.
Seth Nelson:
It's a pretty wide berth therapy-
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Why is that?
Seth Nelson:
On when one parent might to say we need therapy.
Pete Wright:
It sounds like it could be easily weaponized by one parent or another. That's kind of what I'm getting at.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, absolutely. That's part of Cathy's job to make sure that when they're in there, they're in there for the right reasons and we're focused on the kid and not on the other. Now, Cathy, correct me if I'm wrong, you're going to be giving the parents some homework so to speak, to you need to talk this way. This is how you approach this. You guys need to be on the same page, but this is not about co-parenting to the extent of if there's a disagreement on the parents on which school to go to. It's more about what is it about the relationship and why aren't you going over to dads or moms or why are you running or why are you doing X, Y or Z? And a lot of what I believe, and this is a question for you Cathy, a lot of behaviors are the same at the houses. They just get reported differently and then sometimes you'll have cases where the kids' playing the parents against each other and then you have cases where they just totally have rejected one parent and I'm assuming Kathy, you see all those different mutations?
Cathy Himlin:
I do. There's so many reasons. I'm in the middle of writing a book right now about what I call the rejected parent, and there's so many reasons why a child can reject a parent and they do show up differently in each house and it is being reported differently and these cases are so complicated that there's any combination of those different things, you just mentioned Seth, that could be happening at any given moment. But my focus when I'm being a therapist and not consultation, I have two separate things that I do as a family therapist, I am helping the parents see it from the child's perspective and it's not about the children changing, it's about the parents approaching it differently. And I do work with both parents separately. If the main primary caretaker is willing, and that's part of my requirement of working with me. I have a contract that I say it's my job to call the shots of who comes in when. I never put the parents in together though in the beginning at all because they're going to ping off of each other, but a separately-
Seth Nelson:
Come on, Cathy. That never happens.
Cathy Himlin:
Can't see that.
Seth Nelson:
It's such a nice term. They ping off of each other.
Pete Wright:
They ping off each other. At what point do the machetes come out? Knives out, beaks bloody.
Cathy Himlin:
They do. They don't even have to say a word. In fact, I don't even allow the parents to show up in the waiting room with a kid present at all because we've had bad experiences. One parent's going to end up in their car waiting for me to bring in the back door. I mean, I take this very seriously because the children get exposed to even the cold war feeling between the parents, that tension, it's very triggering to kids and it's bad for them. So I protect that. I try to make it very safe when I'm working with them.
Seth Nelson:
I like how you said, "Wow, Pete," like that was news to you.
Pete Wright:
All of this is totally news to me. Are you kidding?
Seth Nelson:
No, I get it.
Pete Wright:
Everything you do is news to me. This whole world is news to me waiting to the back door. I watch the Americans.
Seth Nelson:
This is a Tuesday. I mean, this is what happens is these parents just... They can't even sit in a room and just imagine that if you're the kid.
Pete Wright:
I'll tell you what I want to imagine. I want to imagine Cathy, paint, let's do a guided meditation where you walk me through the best case. Thinking about your main goals of reunification therapy or conjoined therapy, if I'm listening to this conversation right now and I'm thinking I might see myself in this conversation, what would I have to look forward to at the end of this process?
Cathy Himlin:
At the end of this process, we would've started off, I would teach a parent how to speak to the child in a different way and to also address any issues that had come up. So any what we would call attachment injuries or ruptures, which would mean little things like maybe a parent didn't show up to a concert and that child made that the reason why they rejected the parent. There's other reasons behind it usually.
Pete Wright:
See ping was a really nice word, but now you just called it a relationship rupture and that just got dark.
Seth Nelson:
See, see went quick, Pete.
Pete Wright:
Hard left turn.
Seth Nelson:
She started off... I know.
Cathy Himlin:
It is. It is what it sounds like the relationship just broke, something happened, something really so egregious inside the child's system doesn't mean that it was abuse or anything, that it just made them say, "I'm sorry, I'm done. I'm out."
Seth Nelson:
Or like Cathy saying, she said, "Not showing up at an event." How about not showing up to pick the kid up on your weekend?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, it's rough. Even I know that feels bad.
Cathy Himlin:
Right. Even though it's legitly, that's more of a justified reason, but I just said it not really a justified, it was an unjustified reason. So there's justified reasons too, and I work with those cases. Justified versus unjustified. Justified is abuse, domestic violence or something major that's happened that would make sense that a child would reject a parent. Unjustified, it's hard to find out what it is.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, could be a million paper cuts that isolated you wouldn't know.
Cathy Himlin:
Yeah. Or maybe just one. And it was just a combination of the other family helping to give a narrative that wasn't quite right. Anyway, so we would go through, the child should feel like they feel heard. The parent has gone in and done some repair work in front of me and then we move in that conjoint process. We don't go straight into conjoint or reunification or family therapy. We start individually so I can really sort out and make sure it's going to be a good fit.
Pete Wright:
When you say individually, you mean individually with each parent and individually with the child?
Cathy Himlin:
Individually with a parent who's being rejected and individually with a child. It's sort of a parallel, like stage one is with the child, stage two's with a parent and they're running parallel process, not in the same room yet. Stage three is conjoint. Stage four is when we're building new ways of communication, tools, ways they can feel comfortable. The child can go back to a parent if they get triggered and say, "Hey, that upset me," and they're able to reach to that parent now that's what it's going to look like and say they get their needs met, their emotional needs met and they can talk to that parent.
Seth Nelson:
When you say conjoint, how would you define that for our listeners? I want to make sure they're not confusing that.
Cathy Himlin:
Sure. And in other states it's called reunification therapy. It's called reconciliation therapy. And basically again, it's just when a child is rejecting a parent and we're trying to-
Seth Nelson:
Bring them back together.
Cathy Himlin:
... bring them back together, right. Repair that relationship.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. Just-
Cathy Himlin:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
So you said one of the steps is to ensure that the child feels heard.
Cathy Himlin:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
How do you know the child feels heard? To me, the only real trigger is in that step four or whatever when the child is reaching out to the rejected parent. But how do you as the therapist recognize, "Hey, I'm making some progress. There are signs the kid is moving on this issue?"
Cathy Himlin:
And it's in the process of me gaining rapport with them in the very beginning because they're feeling heard by me first. And then, when the parent is coming and seeing some validating, they're doing active listening skills and teaching them that, validating empathetic statements around the issues the child's complaining about, then the child feels heard because they're going straight in for the emotions and the emotional reaction that child had to something. And then that really calms the system down. We talk about parental co-regulation, so they're able to go in and empathetically reach this child and then they just calm. So that's when I know the child's more relaxed and able to interact organically with the parent. It's really beautiful when it happens. It's great.
Pete Wright:
Have you ever actually tried charming a snake? Because I feel like this is the same set of skills.
Cathy Himlin:
No. Not yet.
Pete Wright:
No?
Seth Nelson:
But it's only charming the snake to get along with the other snake, Pete.
Pete Wright:
Okay, that's fair. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Okay, come on now. Stay focused here.
Pete Wright:
Just trying to attach it to something I understand.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. How much snake charming have you done in your life that you understand?
Pete Wright:
So much. You don't want to look at my body, it's swish cheese.
Cathy Himlin:
See, I know in these cases it feels like that. Like it's so negative and it can be, but it's really underneath it, it's pain. So the reason why it's easier for me now to sit in the room with people who are so agitated at each other, even if I have two parents when the kid's not there, I might do that on occasion. I just see their pain, I see what they're going through. And when you can see their pain, then you have empathy. And when you can have empathy and understand where they're coming from, they aren't snakes, they're just people in pain. And we need to talk to them and identify their pain and recognize that. And that really, it goes a long ways.
Seth Nelson:
Cathy, how often, if ever, does a parent truly say to the child, "I'm sorry," and the child then actually accept that apology?
Cathy Himlin:
Recently since I changed up how I do things, it's been way more often. Sometimes the children will reject it initially because it just doesn't meet their narrative. It doesn't meet what they think their parent is and so they do reject it. And when those situations happen, I just encourage a parent to keep up the same thing because we're planting seeds. Even if on the outside we've got a grumpy kiddo that doesn't want to accept a parent on the inside, something's hitting and registering and it can grow.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, because I mean look, we all make mistake as parents. And one mistake that I don't think I made is I was always conscious about apologizing when I made a mistake. And I think when my kid was little, it was like, "Wait, you're the guy in control. What are you apologizing for?" And the whole point was, "Yeah, I'm a parent. I still make mistakes. You're upset. I was too short with you. I was tired, I snapped at you." Whatever the case may be. When I've seen it's been really powerful. But to your point, all the parent can do is say it, you can't make someone accept it,
Cathy Himlin:
But if you say it out of sincerity... And that's the difference because I do parents that have said, "I've apologized, I've done this," and then when I walk them through what an apology really looks like, if they need to apologize, then there's situations that there's false allegations and I don't want to get into that.
Seth Nelson:
No, no, no, I'm not talking about that.
Cathy Himlin:
But just genuinely, I try to find even aspects of things that they can apologize for and that they really go, "Oh, I get it." So I have to help the parent understand.
Seth Nelson:
Pete might need to hear some of those things that people should apologize for. Maybe-
Pete Wright:
We need to describe very clearly. And I know you're making fun of me and that's allowed, but the point is there is language of an apology and walk us through what is the language of an apology that actually is authentic?
Cathy Himlin:
Okay, well, if we help our eye, I say we, because I'm working with a parent like a team, I feel like when we're talking about feelings, we identify the feeling like how their feelings were hurt. They can understand why those feelings, their feelings were hurt, why that made them sad, why that made them angry, and give a couple of explanations why they understand it and then say, I get it and I'm so sorry. I'm just so sorry this happened. I didn't mean for it to happen like this and moving forward and then give some hope for the future. Moving forward I understand now, and so I'm going to try really hard not to repeat that. So it's just a real sincere feeling, if that makes sense.
Pete Wright:
Well, what I hear in there is the fact that you have to make it work. You have to describe that you know what you did. And I think a lot of people say, "I'm sorry," and move on and they don't describe that they know what it was that caused pain.
Cathy Himlin:
Right, they're just reflecting something like a statement. "Oh, sorry. Sorry that I shouted at you." Well, that's not a good sincere apology. It's like I get it.
Seth Nelson:
Or the non-apology, apology. I'm sorry you felt bad about what I did.
Cathy Himlin:
Yeah, I'm sorry you think that I was upset at you or you think that... That type of thing, that's not sincere. So it has to be sincere and connected emotionally is the key.
Seth Nelson:
You want to practice, Pete?
Pete Wright:
Well, I was thinking about it. I was thinking about it just now. I was thinking because how could I manufacture an apology? And the truth is I could say something like, "Hey, I'm sorry I just said that you were a snake. I don't believe that you were a snake. I was going for a cheap joke and I was intimating that Cathy has the skills that could also charm snakes. You are not a snake in any way, shape or form, and I love you." Right?
Seth Nelson:
Oh my God, until you got to the I love you, that was very painful. But the love you felt serious.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, no, it was good. I mean, what's missing?
Cathy Himlin:
What's missing? What's missing is understanding how Seth may have felt when you called him a snake. That may have made... Here, let me try.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, go ahead,
Cathy Himlin:
Seth, that may have made you feel irritated or criticized by me, and I really didn't intend that and I was just trying to crack a joke for the sake of the show, and I really apologize. I'm sorry and I won't do that in the future.
Seth Nelson:
I really appreciate that, Cathy. And Pete, I thought it was funny and I took it as a compliment.
Pete Wright:
Well, all of this is why I still make my kids take a knee when I walk into the room. I'm just saying, it's too much work.
Cathy Himlin:
Do you see the difference between what you said, Pete, and what I did? So I went for the emotion. And that's the key because if we don't have the emotion addressed, we're just saying words. There's no connection.
Seth Nelson:
And Cathy, sometimes when you... I always think it's a little dangerous to tell people what they feel like. I say, "And that might've made you feel like this," or another feeling that I haven't articulated because otherwise you get back, "That's not what I felt like."
Cathy Himlin:
That's okay because if it isn't, then at least you're trying and it shows that you care. And I would say, "Oh gosh, I missed it. So what was it you were feeling in that moment? Because I want to understand you better," and I just really accept that.
Seth Nelson:
Keep it calm.
Cathy Himlin:
Oh yeah, yeah, because you can't... The knee-jerk for some people is to get defensive because you got it wrong and, oh no, I just upset them more. But no, no, no, no, you're actually showing them you're trying. So that's important. If you're doing it in a loving way, like Pete loves you, then that would be-
Seth Nelson:
Just like we should end the show right now. That was awesome.
Cathy Himlin:
Then that helps. You have to really get into that genuine space because you can hear people give apologies and you share that defensiveness in the back of it and that's just, or a coldness to it, that doesn't work.
Seth Nelson:
And what about you got to meet the kid where they are, right? I'm assuming an apology for a six-year-old is different than a sixteen-year-old.
Pete Wright:
But does it really have to be because we're adults and we're practicing the same language that I have to imagine works on kids too?
Cathy Himlin:
Yeah, it works on everybody, but you have to tailor it. You don't talk to, like we're talking right now, you're not going to talk to a six-year-old like that. It's going to be more simple and more to the developmental stage and all that stuff. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
But the concepts are all the same?
Cathy Himlin:
Works across the board and in couples therapy and it's hard to do it in co-parenting because I dabble in that on occasion, but in couples therapy, same thing. You have to see each other's pain and then own it and connect at that level.
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, I got to tell you, you've said it a couple times and my wife and I got into a disagreement yesterday, and I will tell you what it was about. When I'm on the phone and she's there, she feels this need to chime in on the conversation. It drives me crazy. And I'm like, "You only hear one side of this conversation." She goes, "No, I can hear through the phone. I hear both." I'm like, "Okay." And she's always doing it and she's in my ear and I'm trying to focus and I really get tense and uptight about it, and I'm going to just ask her Cathy when she next time, I'm like, "Do you see my pain? Do you see the pain that you're causing me?"
Cathy Himlin:
Say, "I feel distracted and I feel upset and I feel criticized when you jump in on the phone call." Say it like that. When you say, "Do you see my pain-"
Pete Wright:
Are you writing it down? Get a post-it.
Seth Nelson:
No. I am literally saying to Andy, highlight this.
Pete Wright:
Please send me the segment of the transcript.
Seth Nelson:
Okay, Cathy, what am I supposed to say? I'm going to learn something here.
Cathy Himlin:
Instead of saying, "Do you see the pain?" See where my finger's going? You'll have to look up stuff.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, I got it. I got it.
Cathy Himlin:
I want you to understand that I feel criticized, I feel distracted, whatever the feelings are you have, I start to feel irritated, but it starts to hurt. I feel hurt when you are jumping in on my conversations. Can you please not do those in the future?
Seth Nelson:
Here's the problem is I can't keep a secret from her. So we're going to a spring training game tonight and we're going to be watching the Yankees. I'm going to tell her this, say, "This is what's coming next time."
Pete Wright:
You're going to tease her?
Cathy Himlin:
Just tell her now when it's not happening, it's so much easier to circle back around. This is what I teach parents too, not to segue back into a topic, but when they say to me, it's been two years since I've seen my kiddo and this thing happened and I never was able to address it, I go, "We can always circle back around." It's almost like going through, I love TARDIS, so just saying, we could go on an emotional time machine and go back. We can't stop it ever from it happening, but we can emotionally repair it in the past.
Seth Nelson:
Wow, that's good.
Cathy Himlin:
So you can go back Seth and say, "I just wanted you to know," and say those statements.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, it happened yesterday. I'm not going back far. It's good.
Cathy Himlin:
But you can go back 10 years. I mean, while I've done couples work, we go back 10, 20 years from some pain points that just never healed and the couple never recovered from, it's the same thing between parents and kids.
Pete Wright:
I had a question for Cathy, Seth, but then all I could think about is the new Dr. Who podcast that Cathy and I are going to do together without you, and now I'm totally distracted.
Seth Nelson:
So Cathy, what you don't know about this show is this is really an audition for better shows that Pete wants to do. So you are knocking it out of the park because usually he doesn't let that slip.
Pete Wright:
I mean, the veil just came down. The mask is on. No, you just won the podcast. Of all of us, you won the podcast.
Cathy Himlin:
Oh, thank you.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, no, that's really powerful.
Seth Nelson:
How many times do I have to tell you to focus today, Pete? I don't know what's going on.
Pete Wright:
It's a rough day. I'm in the TARDIS.
Cathy Himlin:
You are a thunder.
Pete Wright:
I'm in the TARDIS right now.
Seth Nelson:
She looked at you when she said that, Pete. So did you bring up permissive parenting? Did you mention that?
Cathy Himlin:
No, I didn't. I don't think so.
Seth Nelson:
Talk about that a little bit. How would you describe that?
Cathy Himlin:
Sure. I mean, permissive parenting would be basically not having any boundaries in my mind how I define it. And kids can do whatever they want and they don't get consequences. They don't get taught boundaries. There's no-
Seth Nelson:
Right, because that's what I hear is the kid's not coming over to my place because I have rules.
Cathy Himlin:
Yes, that is a common reason to be rejected.
Pete Wright:
Oh.
Seth Nelson:
And at the other parent's house, there are no rules.
Cathy Himlin:
Unlimited screen time.
Seth Nelson:
They go to bed anytime they want. They've got their electronics with them when they go. I can tell because I'll get a text message at two in the morning from my kid. They're not even good at hiding it. Right? I mean, so how do you deal with a kid who's rejecting a parent that is providing the structure that we all say kids need?
Cathy Himlin:
Right? Well, again, reaching them through their emotions for the other parent and then maybe working with the parent who's being permissive to tighten up the parenting. Even that's difficult to do and sometimes I've seen judges having sanctions for some of the behavior in some of those homes when it's not. But I don't know if that always works. So, it's hard to work with. I try to just do parent ed, if I hear that sort of thing happening and try to explain that it's really better on the child if both houses are doing the same thing, if that's really the only reason.
Seth Nelson:
And it's so hard if they don't agree.
Pete Wright:
I was just going to say, isn't that one of the areas of conflict when parents split because they don't agree on parenting styles?
Cathy Himlin:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
Well, that's conflict in every relationship. No couple I've ever known-
Pete Wright:
Well, if they're no longer willing to work on it together is really the implication.
Seth Nelson:
That's right. That makes it harder when you're like, why... And here's the thing that's wrong about that, Pete. And look, I will tell you, I felt this when, my former spouse and I were divorced and we wouldn't agree on a parenting issue. I certainly felt the emotion of why do I need to even try to work because I'm not in a relationship with her anymore? That's the first thing that popped in my head. And I was like, put on the brakes, because it impacts my kid and I do have a relationship with her, it's just a different relationship.
Pete Wright:
And that's super red flaggy, right?
Seth Nelson:
Oh, yeah.
Pete Wright:
That if your instinct is, I'm going to do my own thing because I don't need to work with her anymore, we're not married. That's the red flag that you're no longer child centered at all. So be aware of that.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly.
Cathy Himlin:
Right. And that's hard to do. It's hard to make another parent do something different.
Seth Nelson:
Right, it's so hard.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. How do you exude influence there?
Seth Nelson:
It's almost impossible. It's almost impossible. You really have to say, "Here's what I'm doing at my house. Here's what's worked, not working? What's happening at your house? I want to be on the same page." And you just see what you get back. But Cathy made another point. Your kids watch what you do and that's what they're going to take on. So one potential solution when they're with you, just blindfold them. Just be done.
Cathy Himlin:
That's not how it works.
Pete Wright:
You see, it's not just me, Cathy. It's not me, he also does it.
Seth Nelson:
That's not how it works, Cathy?
Cathy Himlin:
No.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, okay. See, we're learning a lot today.
Pete Wright:
You try stuff, it's all about ideas.
Cathy Himlin:
Oh, that's funny. Yes.
Pete Wright:
Cathy, this has been really, really great. Thank you for putting up with us, really, I think is the line. Where can people learn more about your work? Where would you like to send if they want to learn more about the kind of services you offer?
Cathy Himlin:
I have two companies, but the one that for the podcast purposes, Himlin Consulting, H-I-M-L-I-N Consulting dot com and that's where I work with parents and I do all my parent education, parents support, consultation, whatever. I also support attorneys, Seth, and talk to law firms on occasion to help them understand what child-centered family law looks like and whatever questions about that will help attorneys help their clients.
Seth Nelson:
Cathy, tell the listeners, where are you located?
Cathy Himlin:
I'm located in San Diego.
Pete Wright:
And you're not under the iron fist of jurisdictional restraint, right? You can talk to anybody?
Cathy Himlin:
No, that's why I have two companies. So Himlin Consulting allows me to be educative and consulting across the country, and that's what I do.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. And do you do stuff by Zoom?
Cathy Himlin:
Yes, and I do stuff by Zoom
Seth Nelson:
And you can work with parents and kids by Zoom?
Cathy Himlin:
I can work with parents, but I don't consult with kids. So only parent consultations, attorney consultations and therapist consultations. I work with three different groups for all the same purpose: child-centered family law or dependency law, which is foster care and stuff. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Outstanding.
Seth Nelson:
Amazing work.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Amazing.
Pete Wright:
Truly.
Cathy Himlin:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
Thank you so much Cathy Himlin for hanging out with us today. We sure appreciate you.
Cathy Himlin:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
Because you're also, in addition to clearly an exemplary therapist, you're the best kind of nerd who drops in the TARDIS in the middle of a conversation like this.
Cathy Himlin:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
Bless you.
Seth Nelson:
Check the show notes for their new podcast.
Pete Wright:
Yep, yep. We're definitely, we're on it. And now everybody, we're turning our attention to a listener question. Listener question, Seth, we've got a listener question. This one comes from, let me see if I can pronounce it, anonymous writes this question.
Seth Nelson:
Is that a first name and last name or all just first name?
Pete Wright:
It could be just a long abbreviation as far as I know, but here we go.
Seth Nelson:
Okay, we'll go with anonymous.
Pete Wright:
Anonymous: "Can you explain what a social investigation is? How much does it cost? Is it applicable for all ages of children? What is a social investigation? Are we just browsing their Facebook pages?"
Seth Nelson:
Okay, much more than that. So let me answer the last question first. Is it applicable for all ages of children? The answer is yes because it's more looking at the parents than it's looking at the kid. So depending on the age of the kid, there might be some psychological testing or meeting with the child and talking to the child. But this is really looking at what the parents, who they are, what's underneath the hood. And what I mean by that, and check your local jurisdiction. Sometimes these things are called different things, but it's where you have a mental health professional that is licensed and can also conduct tests on the parents.
And what I mean that I mean literally their personality test. And they will be there for hours taking these tests. And there's all different kinds of them. I'm not going to bore you with the laundry list of them, but what happens is these tests are designed to be able to pick up whether you're being truthful or not. And some of them will have inconclusive results because it'll say, you know what? The parent knew I was asking about their parenting and their style and what they do. And the test results came back that they were obviously trying to make themselves look better than they are, which brings the test results inconclusive. Okay?
Pete Wright:
Well, when does this happen? I don't think we've ever talked about this. How does this whole process get triggered?
Seth Nelson:
Well, you can do it by court order or by agreement. And court ordered, it's you go to court and say, "This behavior has occurred or is continuing to occur or numerous behaviors. I think there's a psychological component to this that we need a social investigation or a psychological evaluation." They're called different things. And here's the doctor, here's the test, here's what I want to have happen. And you go to court and you argue about whether you've met your burden to have that happen. Now, how much does it cost? Like a typical lawyer answer, I apologize in advance. It depends. Here's what it depends on. Some of them will be very broad and they'll talk to what's called collateral. So you show up as a parent and you say, "My co-parent acts out at the doctor's office, acts out at the soccer practice, acts out at the soccer games."
You go, "My God, what that co-parent did at the parent teacher conference or what they did at the school play." So now you have all these other witnesses and the more you give, the more that social investigator is going to go talk to these people and the more it's going to cost because it's paid hourly. They take all of that, they talk to you, they review the pleadings in the court and the court filings and the court orders and did you comply with the court orders? And they review text messages and our family wizard messages or talking parent messages on the apps going back and forth. And they'll look at the school grades and they'll go talk to counselors or someone at the school, what's happening with the kid. All that takes time and money.
And then they write a report, which is pages and pages. I'm talking 40, 50, 60, a hundred pages of everything that's happened. And then, they give, depending on their scope and what they were hired to do and what the court order says, they might just stop there and say, "Judge, here you go. You figure out the parenting plan." Or they might be tasked with, here's what I think is best for the child, here's the parenting plan. So they can be five grand, 10 grand, a hundred grand, and they're very labor-intensive.
Pete Wright:
How often do you end up seeing one of these things triggered in your cases? Is this a frequent thing?
Seth Nelson:
I wouldn't say frequent. They're not every case. They're not 50% of the cases. They're certainly less than that. I think-
Pete Wright:
But it's not entirely irregular to go down this road?
Seth Nelson:
No. And in fact, in what I've noticed in Florida since the law changed in July 1st, 2023 where it was a presumption of 50/50, how do you get over that presumption? One is a social investigator.
Pete Wright:
Wow, okay.
Seth Nelson:
You come in and say, we got a real problem. So as much as they're trying to say, "Oh, let's end litigation right," now, it's like, well, how do you get over that?
Pete Wright:
You have one more thread to pull.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, exactly. So it's expensive, it's time consuming, it's nauseating. You are going to sit there and sit in a table for hours and fill out questionnaires on your parenting style. Something that I would never want to do.
Pete Wright:
Sounds like a real treat. I'm so glad that you get to do that.
Seth Nelson:
Well, here's the other thing, just to finish this. I know it's a long answer and Andy's going to be like cut it off, but this is important. Then you go to court and a lot of people say, well, once you get the report, oh, that's going to carry the day. But if you don't like the outcome, you can hire someone else to evaluate it, or I get to depose the person who did the report.
Pete Wright:
You get to depose the therapist or the doctor, whoever actually delivered it.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. And I've gone to trial and I actually beat a report once. And I'm not saying this happens all the time. I am not saying this would happen in your case, but I had a report where it did not come out in favor of my client. I went to court and I got my client better than the report suggested, which means I underline the credibility of the report. And the way you do that is you always attack assumptions. There's assumptions in every single document. So, there you have it.
Pete Wright:
Okay, anonymous, thank you so much for asking question. Hope that answer helps shed a little bit of light, at least give you some guidance on how to talk to your own counsel in your own jurisdiction. Please do that. And thank you everybody for hanging out and listening to this show. If you want to get your own question on the show, head over to Howtosplittatoaster.com. There's a button, it says Submit a Question and if you click it, there's a form and you can ask a question. It's like from the form to set seers by way of my mouth. And we would love to get more of your questions. We're eager to hear them.
You can also over at How to Split a Toaster dot com, you'll see the little box at the bottom. You can ask a question there, and that's like interviewing past episodes of the podcast. And those questions that you ask, they also come to us. So you might start hearing some of those questions on the show as well. On behalf of the wonderfully talented Cathy Himlin, fantastic therapist and excellent nerd, and Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney, I'm Pete Wright and we will catch you next week right here on How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
How to split A Toaster is part of the True Story FM podcast network, produced by Andy Nelson, music by T. Bless and the Professionals, and DB Studios. Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, how to split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
