Navigating a High Conflict Divorce with Shannon Jenkins
Meet Shannon Jenkins
Divorce is never easy, but when you’re trying to divorce a narcissistic sociopath, things are so much more complicated. Add in complications involving international moves and it’s quite a process. Shannon Jenkins had to deal with all of that and more when she made the decision to get out of her relationship with her now-ex. It was the most challenging part of her life, but she’s through it now and the better for it. Pete and Seth have a wide-ranging conversation with Shannon about her decision to break free, what that meant for her and their child, and the process she went through. It was rarely easy, if ever. But she made it through and is now living a life full of confidence and strength. On top of that, she’s podcasting about her journey. It’s a great conversation that looks at the challenges of dealing with a high conflict divorce and how to navigate those treacherous waters, as well as how to build your strength on the other side. Join us!
About Shannon
Shannon Jenkins is the host of self-development & spirituality podcast "Starting over with Shannon" with weekly shows which motivate and encourage listeners to do ‘the’ work of inner healing and conquer challenges they face in their lives in the name of greater joy, meaning, peace and purpose. Inspiration for the podcast was born out of a challenging chapter of her own: separating from a high-conflict partner, years of legal proceedings and healing from the abuse within and after that relationship. In 2020 she was granted sole parental responsibility for their son by the Family Court of Western Australia and permission to relocate from Australia to Switzerland. Prior to podcasting, Shannon was a humanities and social sciences teacher as well as a public speaking and debating instructor. She holds a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science, International Relations and Business Law from the University of Western Australia, with additional studies completed at King’s College London and Sciences Po, Paris.
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from True Story FM. Today, your toasters thinking about itself again.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everybody I'm Seth Nelson, and as always, I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. Separating from a high conflict partner brings with it significant baggage. Not only are you dealing with your attorney more than you might otherwise have to, but you're piling on the fear and abuse of a separation in conflict.
Shannon Jenkins is hosting, Starting Over With Shannon, a podcast dedicating to conquering challenges and doing the work of inner healing and brings to the show her own experience of high conflict separation.
Shannon, welcome to the toaster.
Shannon Jenkins:
Thank you. Thanks for the welcome.
Pete Wright:
Shannon is coming to us from Switzerland?
Shannon Jenkins:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
I mean, the people are listening can hear this, but we've been looking at what's out your window and we all want to go there because that's a dreamy setup you have right now. I feel like we opened with you're in Switzerland because at some point we're going to talk about how you ended up in Switzerland because your separation was a ride.
Shannon Jenkins:
Yeah and not the most fun I got to say.
Pete Wright:
No, it doesn't sound like. It doesn't sound like it.
How do you start? When you're talking about the experience you went through to get you in a marriage that ended up leading to a high conflict separation, how do you start that conversation?
Shannon Jenkins:
It's a difficult one, but I often start with the typical love bombing because I think I was young, and dating in London where I was studying at university, and I had met what I thought to be the man of my dreams. Somebody very exuberant, charming, intellectually intelligent, loyal, devoted, adventurous, all of these things-
Seth Nelson:
He sounds awful. Sounds terrible.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I know.
Seth Nelson:
Red flags all over the place.
Pete Wright:
Geeze. Totally. They don't exist. What you're describing.
Seth Nelson:
Unicorn.
Pete Wright:
Something wrong.
Shannon Jenkins:
This is exactly what I was like. I mean call it naive. Of course, I look back in hindsight and go, "Yep. Unfortunately that was the case." I didn't see a lot of what happened. I didn't see it coming. It took a long time to get to that point.
I think the way that my life unfolded over the next two years, which actually wasn't a long period of time in comparison to some stories I hear where the marriages have gone on for a lot longer. For me, it was just some kind of whirlwind romance that ended up with a pretty hard fall to say the least.
Pete Wright:
From the perspective of people listening to this, and we're going to make some assumptions. All kinds of people listen to these conversations, but from our perspective, we want to make sure that what they get out of this are, what are we looking for? What are some of the signals that they need to watch out for that they might be in a relationship like this because as I'm sure you are not alone in this high conflict divorce space. Then we'll talk about the legal stuff, the legal story on the back end of this show. We'll let Seth chime in.
You're in this relationship that sounds very dreamy. Of course, it is the stuff of sociopathic movies and horror shows. How did you get to the point of realizing, oh my goodness? What are those signals that you got to that you think this is not right?
Shannon Jenkins:
I think what is different in my situation in comparison to other stories I've heard was that I did not have the vocabulary for personality disorders throughout the whole of our relationship. It was only until well about six months afterwards that I was on a date with a surgeon who was training to be a psychiatrist who knew those things in depth. I think I recounted about 15 seconds of my story, not more and he was like, "This guy sounds like a narcissistic sociopath and probably everyone can see it but you."
I remember just going home and Googling the crap out of that term. I just like fell into some kind of hole for hours as you do [inaudible 00:04:26]
Seth Nelson:
Now, Shannon, I'm not trying to make light of your situation at all, but I used that same pickup line when I was dating when they described their ex, when they were talking about it. [inaudible 00:04:35] Sounds like-
Pete Wright:
You always describe their exes a malignant sociopath.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, exactly. You got to just agree with what you hear, Pete.
What did you learn when you Googled the shit out of that term?
Shannon Jenkins:
Significant amounts of control. That was probably what I didn't see coming. What I didn't see in the early days, but then there were certain things like getting us to move from London to Australia. I was pregnant. It was unexpected, but then it all felt like I was following in his footsteps a little bit. Agreeing to move to Australia, when agreeing to put my studies on hold, agreeing to stay at home.
He wanted me to stay at home for a longer period of time, but then was also not happy with sharing money. Anything that he earned was his and there was no acknowledgement of my contribution to being at home during that time.
There were off the cuff kind of remarks that I didn't know what to make of it, especially because he was very funny. I mean, he was a comedian by trade. There was on one occasion I said, "I'm tired of doing all of our laundry. Like we said, this was not going to be our setup. I'm tired of doing everything at home." He said, "I might just get tired of feeding you then or feeding our son then."
There were those kinds of comments that happened more and more and I was like, "But I don't understand. What is happening right now?
Pete Wright:
Wow.
I don't know how to put that in a box that fits in my brain.
Seth Nelson:
Shannon, Pete is rarely if ever speechless.
Pete Wright:
I might get tired of feeding you or our child, Seth.
Shannon Jenkins:
Yeah, our couple of month old child.
Seth Nelson:
Pete, what you just experienced, which was jaw dropping if someone was watching us record this podcast. Literally your jaw dropped. That is the flavor of what so many people going through divorce deal with that people that they talk to don't believe. That's where all the gas lighting starts. Like, "No, you got to be crazy with all this stuff."
When people hear that I'm a divorce attorney and they say, "Oh my God, you must have some crazy stories." I say, "Yes, I can tell you from the last two weeks, it's not like I have to go back two years."
Then I say something like, "So by way of example, it's not uncommon for me to hear a client tell me that they gave up their career, their studies, they moved across the country, and the next thing they know their spouse is saying, you know what, I'm controlling all the money and I'm getting tired of feeding you and our child." I didn't get the jaw drop that you did because I hear these things daily.
Pete Wright:
I mean, those signals, which sounds like I mean hearing the way you talk about it, Shannon it just seems like he was able to say those things naturally, sort of effortlessly. He wasn't making a dig, which makes it all the more sort of-
Seth Nelson:
Creepy.
Pete Wright:
For lack of better word again, it's creepy, sociopathic.
Shannon Jenkins:
It was definitely the coldness I think that was so disconcerting really from somebody who presented as being very charming, and warm, and-
Seth Nelson:
What happened when you told your friends, or your parents, or whoever you confided in about that?
Shannon Jenkins:
So much confusion. I mean, probably this classic cognitive dissonance where it's like, "Well, this isn't adding up. I don't know what to make of this right now." Naturally making excuses I think. "Maybe you've just had a baby. You've just moved to the other side of the world. He's just started a couple of new companies. There's probably a lot of stress."
Of course that's what I was doing as well. I would be having those conversations, but I obviously didn't know what to make of it. Being in that vulnerable position, having a young child, being on the other side of the world for my family, I wanted to make things work. I think it was only after a certain number of months where I thought... Fortunately I do say there was something inside me, let's call it some smidgen of self worth. Though undoubtedly, he was trying to beat that out of me with a lot of derogatory remarks.
There was something that said, "No, I deserve more than this. We deserve more than this and I can have a better life." Even though that felt frightening to take the leap of calling this quits. Knowing that I had no money, knowing I had no job, no career, no completed studies.
Pete Wright:
I'm curious and I don't mean to make this just sort of a pragmatic question, but you were living in London, are you an Australian national?
Shannon Jenkins:
Both Australian and British.
Pete Wright:
What was the motivation to move to Australia? Was that his idea?
Shannon Jenkins:
I think it was, yeah. The thing that startled me was not even remembering how it became my idea. He would present it as my idea and very much encouraging that this could be the best thing for us when I think a lot of people like, "Are you sure? Is that what you actually really want?" Over time, I thought, "Okay, yeah, maybe that is what I want."
There was definitely a link with having an abortion and that sounds really brutal in hindsight of whether we keep our son or not. That was linked to, "We will keep our son or our baby," I didn't know son at the time, "If we moved to Australia. Otherwise, I don't want to go through with this."
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Well, and that ties up some loose ends in my head about this story or even that sort of early in the relationship. There is still that sort of impetus for control and pushing towards such a significant move putting you in that sort of subservient place of having to make that decision. It's like hostage taking in a way.
Shannon Jenkins:
I later learned, Seth maybe this isn't surprising from the stories that you hear, but this sort of came up throughout the legal procedure a couple of years later that he was actually under investigation for financial crimes in the UK. There would've been a reason to have wanted to leave.
Seth Nelson:
None of this surprises me.
Pete Wright:
Oh, my God.
Seth Nelson:
I'm not making light of this at all, Shannon. Let me be very clear is that when you deal with people such as this first and foremost, you have to understand they only care about themselves. They have no room in their mind nor capabilities to have empathy. It's about control. It's about them and that's it.
It's very similar to, Pete when I talk to someone who is in a relationship with an alcoholic and they say, "But what about this? What if I just do this?" I always say, "No, he's an alcoholic. No, he's an..." You just have to beat it into their head that you are trying to put a rational solution to an irrational problem because in Shannon's case, there is no rational solution to the problem.
You're just going to open up that can of worms and they're going to keep coming and those worms are going to be like a clown car with clowns coming out of it. It just keeps coming, and coming, and coming. Right when Shannon correct me if I'm wrong you think, "Oh my God, there's nothing else that could be even crazier than this." Then it's he's under investigation for financial crimes in the UK and that's why he wanted to get out of dodge.
Pete Wright:
Well of course he is. At this point, of course he is.
How do you get to the point then of realizing you're in a position that you now need to get out of? What is the approach to telling somebody like this it's time for a divorce?
Shannon Jenkins:
I think that it was quite hasty. I will say I think in hindsight maybe if people listening if they're in similar situations it would be to be a little bit more calculated perhaps in how to leave. I think it got to the point where I just couldn't cope anymore. I think there was an argument one night and I said, "I'm done. I'm just so done." I just packed my bags and I left.
It didn't end as easy as that and I think that's what surprised me. We weren't married at the time. Though in Australian law there's not really a distinction between marriage and de facto relationships. We still could have the same legal fight as such with the separation, divorce, finances, child custody, and so forth.
He did not want to let me go and I think that's when I started seeing more threats, I said, "I wanted to move back to London, just like we promised. We said we'd be going here just for one year than I'd finished the fourth year of my studies." I'd done three years already in London and Paris and he said, "No, if you do that, I'll be reporting you to the police and getting our son placed on the airport watch list. You can't go."
It would be this back and forth between nasty and nice and I think that's what was so unsettling. Anxiety inducing really because it was like threat and I very much felt the darkness and something that made me fearful of him and then it would quickly shift into charming jokes. Funny, "Don't worry. I'll always support you two. I'll pay you this amount per week. I'll give you access to a car."
Seth Nelson:
And then the next-
Pete Wright:
So it makes you think you're losing your mind.
Seth Nelson:
The next sentence is, "And you're going to be out on the street with our child and I don't give a shit."
Shannon Jenkins:
It was always back and forth. I felt very, very unstable I think in terms of my own sense of vulnerability, and safety, and so forth.
Pete Wright:
Hasty, what does that look like? You say you're going to leave let's walk through some of the practical aspects of the separation.
Shannon Jenkins:
I said I was going to leave and I realized I had no where to go as you do.
Pete Wright:
Hasty number one.
Seth Nelson:
Shit I hate it when-
Pete Wright:
I have no [inaudible 00:14:57].
Seth Nelson:
I hate it when that happens. [inaudible 00:14:58].
Pete Wright:
Why did I jump?
Seth Nelson:
I'm leaving and I can't find the door. Goddamnit.
Shannon Jenkins:
Oh my God. Can I say it's actually really good to laugh because I think looking back this was bloody awful and then actually it's nice to think, "Oh gosh, I'm in such a different position and this can actually be pretty funny," but yes. I had nowhere to go and realized he was not okay with extending the rent on the place that we had been living in. He bought somebody somewhere else.
Then he said, "Well, I'll be kind to you and I'll let you stay on an air bed. You and our son can have the air bed on the floor until you get yourself sorted." Of course, I didn't have any money. He actually made a lot more money than I realized too. His companies with offshore accounts and all sorts [inaudible 00:15:40] have no idea.
Seth Nelson:
You always make more money when you're doing financial fraud.
I mean come on, Shannon.
Pete Wright:
That's rule number one, Shannon. If you're lying about it you're making more money.
Seth Nelson:
I've never had the guy do financial fraud and be like, "I'm just losing my ass on these deals."
Pete Wright:
I'm the worst fraudster ever. I'm terrible at this.
Shannon Jenkins:
Oh, man. Oh, so naive. Goodness me.
Pete Wright:
Just keep saying you're in a better place right now. It's okay. [inaudible 00:16:12]
Seth Nelson:
Shannon, we're joking out of love. Not out of anything else.
Pete Wright:
Totally because otherwise we'd be crying.
Shannon Jenkins:
No, I'm laughing with you. It's great.
Yeah, nowhere to go. Sweaty air bed on the floor. Not knowing what to do. Then fortunately, I will say that the Australian government are quite supportive and that I had enough through government payments per week and through supplement child support from my ex, which didn't last very long I've got to say. That was very much bought by me. Full honesty, continuing to have sex with him and be kind to him.
I'm sure this is a very common scenario too. Not actually fully being able to separate, but then being torn between how do I get out of this and how do I provide for my six month old baby and me right now and not wanting to be on the streets?
Seth Nelson:
Let's be very clear, that's very natural because we've had experts on this show that said, "When you're breaking up it's as if you're breaking your brain from an addiction." It's not uncommon to go back.
Some people that haven't walked in your shoes, or lived this similar life, or have these stories or like, "Seriously, he says he's going to leave you penniless and homeless with your child and you don't just leave and he's putting you on an air mattress. How could you have sex with him afterwards?"
Literally there's physical, chemical reactions in your brain that cause you to make those decisions until you can start breaking away from that. It's really, really hard especially when you're that vulnerable.
Shannon Jenkins:
Yeah and it was. I was very much in this place where my nervous system was just completely dysregulated. I think I was just in this heightened state of anxiety this whole time. Probably for quite a few months I would say until I then resigned to not being able to go back to England, which was hard. It was really difficult because that's what the agreement always was, but I said, "Okay, I'm going to transfer to a university here in Perth, Western Australia, finish my studies."
That's how the separation went until which point that there were a series of events like him intruding on my home, some assault, and other things. Suspicion of stalking, high suspicion. I mean, very high probability.
Pete Wright:
You're dropping kind of a scary bullet list of things that just sort of happened in an indetermined amount. Assault, he became violent after the separation?
Shannon Jenkins:
More sexually, I would say. There were quite a lot of separate incidents, which were not in isolation that terrible. I think that was another thing that I found very hard to make sense of. Was, "Oh, okay he's making a joke about this again the fact that I just got out the shower and I find him sitting at the kitchen table. Just reading a newspaper in first thing in the morning and how is he in my house when I had been making clear measures to distance myself?"
There were a lot of separate events like that. Until one evening when I had a whole string of text messages, really vulgar sexual messages. He knew that I was dating somebody else and I didn't know what to do with this. I went to the police station for the first time and I said, "I just want this to stop basically. He has our son tonight. I know he's blind drunk. He has a substance abuse problem and how can I make this stop?"
They referred me to some documents about getting a restraining order, family violence restraining order so that he couldn't contact me. I decided to go through with that. I remember that being one of the hardest decisions I ever made and I was so nervous because actually he was buying my compliance even through child support payments and so on.
It got to a point where I thought, "I've got to stand up for myself in this because I know it's not going to stop," but then from that day that I did that, he went heavy on me and he immediately filed in the family court to commence parenting proceedings. Then there were a whole string of events that happened for about a year and a half, two year period until which point the family court judge ruled that I had sole custody of our son and permission to relocate here to Switzerland.
Pete Wright:
You come to all of these decisions. You start down this path of standing up for yourself on a night that your former partner is blind drunk with your son.
Shannon Jenkins:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Seth Nelson:
I want to talk through that, Pete.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, would you please?
Seth Nelson:
Shannon, I think what I heard you say was state a crisis, your kid's not with you, you know he's not at that moment capable of caring for your son. You go to the police and they say, "Get a restraining order," and then that's your next step.
Between talking to the cops and getting the restraining order did you happen to talk to a lawyer and say, "How's this all play out?"
Shannon Jenkins:
No, I think I had one appointment with a legal aid lawyer and it was cheap. I didn't have any money. It probably cost about $30 and to be honest, I didn't get anything out of that appointment other than what I already knew online.
No, I didn't have any solid legal advice. No.
Seth Nelson:
Pete, you know how I will bitch about lawyers all day long.
Pete Wright:
Every day, all day.
Seth Nelson:
Here's the thing and this is really key for our listeners to understand. Is when you're in a state of crisis like this there is the immediate call 911 I'm in trouble. I need help. That's what it's there for, but also understanding if you're about to file a restraining order what if any impact is that going to have on the family law court? Because they tie together and what happens in one court can influence what happens on the other.
I'm not saying Shannon did anything wrong. I do not know Australian law. In Florida, I would've said, "Let's file for a domestic violence injunction." That's what we're calling restraining order here, "But let's also immediately file in family court because we want to do this in conjunction, run a parallel path."
In Hillsborough County under the United or Unified Family Court sometimes the domestic violence injunction the restraining order will get transferred to the family court and it's all together so it's one judge, one decision, one family. You're not going to get conflicting rulings.
There's things like that these are questions to ask for our listeners out there, no matter what jurisdiction you're in. Get to a lawyer and you're going to be asking these questions. If I'm going to get a restraining order and I want a divorce or were never married, how does it work for child custody or visitation? Whatever they called it in your jurisdiction, but these are vital questions to ask and get answers to.
I'm not saying Shannon you did anything wrong. You're in crisis, get the restraining order. Thankfully though it was hell going through, you finally get your relocation and you have your child a hundred percent of the time. Just be thinking about these things. Does that make sense?
Shannon Jenkins:
I mean, yes, it does. Definitely.
Looking back, of course it was hasty I didn't really know what to do. It's true I think if I knew what I knew now [inaudible 00:23:39] in ways I would've acted different differently.
Pete Wright:
Getting out of the country what are the complications with that relocation? Did he throw up additional barriers with you leaving Australia?
Shannon Jenkins:
Oh, absolutely. I mean, the interesting thing was that he made the initial initiating application in the court and that was basically to have equal time on some allegations that he did much more than he ever did in reality. I then had an opportunity to respond to that and asked for what I wanted and there was about a two month window where I was like, "What do I actually want?"
I then went to see a lawyer. I had said, "Okay, I had made this application in a separate court magistrates court for the family violence restraining order and I now need to deal with all of this. What do I do?" I explained the whole scenario about how it was our intention to only move to Australia temporarily, and that I wanted to be back in Europe. There's a whole variety of specific bits there with me speaking French, doing international relations at university, which I couldn't use in Perth, but could use in Geneva.
A whole series of things that made it clear that this lawyer said, "How about relocation to Switzerland?" That was just music to my ears at the time. Actually the person that I'm now who's my current fiance who I live with here. Who I have a beautiful, beautiful relationship with, which is a whole nother story of course, how you can learn to trust and so on again, after being so broken-
Pete Wright:
That's on my list. We might have to have a second show, but it's on the list.
Shannon Jenkins:
I mean, it just makes sense because I think it is very, very difficult, but I actually knew this person from actually for a longer amount of time than my ex. There was already a help there in terms of trust, but he lives in Switzerland too. Even though that was the start of our relationship, it was like, "Oh my goodness, there is an opening here for us to be together." That just felt I don't know, mind blowing to say the least.
I decided to go ahead and fight that fight, but I knew from day one, the lawyer that I instructed she said, "Listen, this is not going to be a sprint. This is going to be a marathon and if it is true what you say about your ex-partners character, this will be even more difficult. So I suggest you get a therapist as well and take care of yourself as best as you can." She was absolutely right.
I mean, I did not, as you sort of said it earlier, Pete, I think there were so many blows that went further and further than I could ever imagine or have conjured up myself. I could not believe the amount of dirty manipulatory tactics. It went far beyond what I could ever have conceived I think.
Pete Wright:
Back to school season is coming up, which it can be difficult no matter where you are in the world for those going through a divorce, but it's especially true when child safety is a concern.
Seth Nelson:
Pete, what a show. It's unbelievable that we understand that there's more than just problems with alcohol out there, but on How to Split a Toaster you know our mission is to help people going through difficult times. Literally improve their relationships with themselves even when they're dealing with extremely difficult people on the other side of that transaction.
One thing that we can definitely tell you is that Soberlink can help you navigate the back to school season in dealing with someone who is struggling with alcoholism. As you know, it's a remote alcohol monitoring technology. It's created to help keep kids safe by keeping the parents monitored to make sure they're not drinking when they have the children. If they are, if they slip up, we can get to the kids quickly and safely.
Pete Wright:
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Seth Nelson:
What are some of the roadblocks he put up to you trying to leave Australia other than just going to court and saying, "Look, I'm a great dad. I deserve 50/50?"
Shannon Jenkins:
A lot of frivolous, additional lawsuits. Alleging that I was actually abusive, that I had abused our son, that my mother had abused him. He got a restraining order against my mother. He tried to sue both of us in two separate courts for damages for alleged property damage to his car. Also, for his business class flights across the country for some business that he thought should be on my shoulders.
A lot of things that meant that I was distracted and it was very hard in terms of the demands on my time as a single mother, a new well university graduate then slash high school teacher. Then the main primary law case to have coped with all of that. It was just like flooding me in and that obviously mounted the pressure.
Seth Nelson:
You can't just get on a plane and your kid and go?
Shannon Jenkins:
No, and from very early on he actually had an ex parte hearing so where I was not in attendance where he said that I was a flight risk and that I needed to go in hand our son's passport into the court. The court granted that and that meant that our son's passport was deposited there for a period of two years until the whole case had [inaudible 00:30:04].
Seth Nelson:
Let's unpack that a little bit, Pete because you're looking to me like ex parte order.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. I mean, I know what that means, Seth, but my cousin in Idaho Falls has no idea. I think for my cousin would you please explain? [inaudible 00:30:19]
Seth Nelson:
Happy for cousin in Idaho Falls?
Pete Wright:
Thank you.
Seth Nelson:
Ex parte simply means you go to court, you don't tell the other side. It's just-
Pete Wright:
Well that seems mean.
Seth Nelson:
Well, exactly.
The way that works it also happens in for what Shannon did or at least in Tampa, Florida. When I go get that domestic violence injunction or restraining order, that's an ex parte filing. I go straight to court and I file it. I say, "There is a problem I don't have time for a hearing to clear your hearing on your docket in a calendar. I need an order now."
If you get the relief you're asking for the court will then set a hearing to hear the other side 14 days out, 20 days out, maybe it gets continued, but there's reasons why you need to go to court for what's called an ex parte order because there's no time to hear from the other side.
In a non divorce case, think about that you got a tree on your yard, Pete and the other side your neighbor's showing up to cut it down. If you don't go get that order stopping that tree service guy from cutting your tree down, it doesn't matter it's going to be done in 10 minutes. You need that quick order.
What he did, from what I'm understanding and Shannon is saying he's saying, "Look, she's a flight risk. About to take my kid across the international lines. I want an order to have that passport seized so she doesn't do that."
Pete Wright:
Oh, they take the passport.
Seth Nelson:
Of the kid. He doesn't care if Shannon leaves.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, yeah, yeah leave. Leave the kid.
Seth Nelson:
Just-
Pete Wright:
That's horrible.
Seth Nelson:
That's what an ex parte order is. Then in Australian law is Shannon has pointed out it appears that okay because the court believes she was a flight risk then we're not giving up this passport until this case is over.
Now to Shannon's credit part of the reason I'm assuming that she was entitled to relocate is because there was nothing in Perth, Western Australia for her. Her occupation that she studied for didn't work that's why she needed to go to Switzerland. She didn't have any support there. Any real job opportunities, no money. Her life really would be better somewhere else.
All the same reasons Shannon that you had for being allowed to relocate were the same reasons that the court might've believed you were a flight risk.
Shannon Jenkins:
Of course. I heard from day one, "Look, this is standard procedure as well," which I can understand why it would be because if roles were reversed I would want that in place. That was very much at the start. I kind of accepted that happening, but then the way that unfolded like I said before it was some legal suits, but then the actions became increasingly preposterous.
To the extent that I think that also played in my favor in the court because while I was complying with every order that had been made against me that I had to do. Ex such as hand in our son's passport to the court, being always reasonable in correspondence and so forth, he was accusing me of abuse like I said. Accusing my current partner of pedophilia, getting him and his ex-wife investigated at their work.
Pete Wright:
Oh my God.
Shannon Jenkins:
It went on, and on, and on.
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Shannon Jenkins:
Of course there were never any things to substantiate that with and I think that was his downfall because while he could use all this beautiful, colorful, flowery language in normal terms and in comedian terms he could get away with it and it'd be quite funny. In that circumstance it did not work for him at all because then of course the judge would say, "And what do you have to substantiate that with? What do you have to prove that?" He had nothing.
Pete Wright:
But it was funny judge. Wasn't it funny?
Seth Nelson:
On the advice of council-
Pete Wright:
He just made his [inaudible 00:34:18] divorce a bit.
Seth Nelson:
Check local jurisdiction, don't make jokes in court.
I'm not giving legal advice. Talk to your lawyers. Check a local jurisdiction. Don't make jokes in court.
Pete Wright:
I think we can safely assert that maybe you don't need to check your local jurisdiction before not making jokes in court.
This is bonkers, but also I'm so glad to be talking to you right now. What is the current status of your relationship? Completely severed? I mean, you're living in Switzerland. I assume your former partner is still in Perth?
Shannon Jenkins:
Unclear.
Pete Wright:
Oh.
Shannon Jenkins:
It's been a year that I've been living here now. A year that the court made this decision and about a couple of months ago he unexpectedly announced that he's also going to move here, which I had anticipated from the early days. I said, "He's fighting this fight, but I know he has no links to Perth and he will leave as soon I do."
Pete Wright:
Since he has no reason to be there.
Shannon Jenkins:
Exactly. Exactly.
I think it's unclear what he's doing. He's now visited. He has seen our son over several weekends, but he's coming and going a lot. I don't think he knows where he is going to set up. He has got a lot of other legal trouble.
A lot of people again chasing him for money. I think the thing is it was a string. It started in the US. Debts and so on, the fraud like I said. Traveled into the UK then to Australia and now where else can he go until it's all going to catch up with him one day. That's what I think. There was a lot of-
Seth Nelson:
Pete's cousins got a nice place in Idaho Falls.
Pete Wright:
Idaho Falls if you're interested. Yeah, pass on that. Pass on that name.
I guess the bigger question for me is the legal obligation that you have to your former partner as father to your son. Say he moves to Switzerland does he have visitation rights? Or is this just you by grace saying... Because you have sole custody, right? There's nothing else he can do to come back at you and say, "I want more." I guess you can always go to court. If I've learned anything you can always go back to court.
Shannon Jenkins:
Yeah, he could try, but we did register the agreement. We're very particular in how we... I say we, me and my current partner have played that out and we followed legal advice. Got it registered here at a local court in Switzerland. The time that he had in which he could appeal that decision has passed now that it's fully registered here.
Seth Nelson:
You already used the Hague Convention?
Shannon Jenkins:
No, we haven't. No.
Seth Nelson:
Just checking. It's a little international law there, Pete. That's what I'm throwing out there. [inaudible 00:37:00]
Pete Wright:
I see you dropped that. I don't even know what that means. What does that mean? My cousin, I mean, I know what it means.
Seth Nelson:
Shannon, did you have to deal with the Hague Convention at all or no?
Shannon Jenkins:
No, I didn't.
Seth Nelson:
The Hague Convention is an international treaty that's a lot of countries have signed on to and it's just for this type of thing. Where if a parent, which Shannon took her child to Switzerland legally with a court order allowing her to go, but if she would've gotten on the plane with a child when there was a court order saying not to how do you get that kid back?
The Hague Convention, just thumbnail sketch here, is international law that is signed off by treaties to say, "Look, if this is a problem, this is how you deal with it." It's allowing countries to work toward it. I'm glad you didn't have that headache, Shannon.
Pete Wright:
That seems like big deal.
Shannon Jenkins:
No. I didn't have that and then in the end, the judge who was amazing, he was actually hilarious. While we can't make jokes in court, the judge can make jokes in court.
Seth Nelson:
Do you know the rule on that, Pete when the judge makes a joke? Do you know that rule?
Pete Wright:
I always laugh I think is the [inaudible 00:38:08]
Seth Nelson:
You got it. You got it.
Pete Wright:
Always laugh. May it please the court.
Shannon Jenkins:
I mean, it was very, very clear that he saw the true colors straight away. It was also clear because there've been a lot of affidavit evidence for a long period of time that just would've been hard to dispute. He just went very, very hard on him.
Even in the final order, he basically allowed me... He put it at my discretion to facilitate visits. Providing that he paid me back the money that he owed me, which was $50,000 and it could have been more, but I decided not to fight for any more money because I knew I was never going to get a cent of it anyway.
Pete Wright:
You were never going to get it anyway.
Shannon Jenkins:
Exactly.
I was like, "I'm not going to pay any more legal fees to fight this fight," but technically in the court order it's written that until which point he has discharged his debt to me, I do not have to incur any costs related to facilitate their time together.
Seth Nelson:
That's a well drafted order because I had a lot of legal stuff going on because it's not that he doesn't get to see the child, but she doesn't have to have any cost to do it, which means it's all on him.
Pete Wright:
If he can't afford to figure out how to see the child, he can't see the child?
Seth Nelson:
You got it.
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Seth Nelson:
The real story here, who you are now and how did you get to be so strong?
Shannon Jenkins:
I do like that question and it is obviously what I'm so about and what I'm trying to do on my podcast, and what I share on my social media because I think sometimes we think of any period of difficulty, any period that's painful, where we suffer, where there's hardship as being somehow a mistake.
We've done something wrong. This shouldn't have happened. Why did I get into this relationship? I should've seen things more clearly. When actually I think I flipped the script on that entirely and I see now actually in many respects that has been the greatest investment I have ever made in myself because he poked me continuously where it hurt.
That meant dragging any of my stuff into court. That meant just complete character annihilation wherever possible. It meant anything that I told him in secret about abuse in my childhood and all sorts of things he just brought that out to anyone and everyone possible. I think there was a lot that I could have chosen to sink under that pressure and stress. Sometimes I did.
I mean, I'm not going to lie. I was there just screaming, and crying, and how is this happening? But I think I did seek out the support that I needed. I kept my heart open to love, which I just think is so, so key. That was love of family, love of a new partner, learning love of myself too. I think I'm just 10 times stronger. He sees it. That was a beautiful thing.
It was about one month ago we had to go to Geneva together to renew our son's passport. Well, in reality, I could have gone myself, but it was easier to not fill in the additional documentation so I decided to go with him. If somebody told me two years ago that I could've sat in the same room as him and not felt anxious, not felt belittled, not felt inferior to him in any possible way I would not have believed them.
Instead, I sat there and I felt strong. I felt resilient. I felt grounded, balanced, and I saw something in me that was entirely missing in him that I have never seen before because of course that meant I also put him on a pedestal. I saw him as being strong, and intelligent, and all of these things and I didn't see that in myself as much.
I think the real lesson I've learned is that he was the sly fox trying to hold me back and I was the cheater just trying to run free. He was always there finding a way to keep me under him. Now I think that those chains have fallen and I am running and I am running ahead of him. That was a strong feeling of pride.
It's like so fulfilling and nice to be able to say that after all of this hardship. Wow, I'm really proud of how I fought when I'm not a fighter typically for a better life for me and a better life for my son.
Pete Wright:
Which is amazing, but I have to go back to this point, which peaks my own anxiety, which is I mean, it's easy now I think to say keeping your heart open to love is important. How do you remotely begin to trust a new partner after what you have been through?
I have to imagine the cynicism would be rearing its head at every turn. Every promise, every I love you, whatever.
Shannon Jenkins:
Yeah, completely. I mean, that came up so, so much. I think in my instance like I said before, I knew, David. My current partner from a long time ago and that helped. It wasn't meeting somebody completely unknown to me. I'd seen him and how he acted in his everyday life for quite some time.
I think while there was doubt or distrust that undoubtedly reared its head for me many a time in contrast to my ex-partner, he followed through with every single thing he said. That really built that foundation of trust there. He said he would be there for me at this point and he did and so on and so forth. I think that really helped to calm that.
Pete Wright:
And he wasn't love bombing you.
Shannon Jenkins:
No.
No, that's a really good point. I'm glad you bring that up because I think what I now know to be love is very different to what I had previously thought of it as being. I was very attracted to this charismatic, adventurous, intelligent man who won me over within a couple of dates. We had fun banter and it was all very intense and steamy and I thought that was a signal that something was right.
Maybe in some respects it could be, but I think what I have experienced with my now current partner who I found that my love for him and his love for me has deepened over time. It's becoming more and more strong and even more and more intense in ways, but it didn't start like that. It was tentative on both sides and it gradually happened, but I think that actually has been better.
Seth Nelson:
I call that and I'm not coining this phrase I've heard this phrase, but I call that the mature love. That it just takes time to get there. It takes shared experiences. It takes being at your most vulnerable or a very vulnerable situation in life in having that partner be there for you. I'll share this about me.
When my mother was extremely ill, terminally ill and on her deathbed, literally I could not believe the strength that my now fiance had and did in supporting me when I was just trying to fucking hold it together. Take care of my clients. Take care of my firm. Take care of my son. Take care of me. Take care of my mother, and my elderly father, and keep the family up to date on the latest fucking medical news.
When you're just at your wits end and just totally raw and vulnerable and there's no even way you can put up a defense, and they don't attack. They just support you. That's mature love. That's not love bombing. That's not bringing you flowers and let's go out to dinner. That's like, "Here's a hug. Yeah. I got dinner."
Pete Wright:
Two points, one I'll note in that whole list of people that you couldn't figure out how to take care of I was not mentioned once. We have that to work on together I guess [inaudible 00:46:16]
Seth Nelson:
Every show we learned something about what's wrong with our relationship.
Pete Wright:
I do want to say you we're talking about how intense and steamy it was and I just want to say for anybody listening who's in a new relationship once you hit that mature love stage and the longer you are together, the steamy stuff is that much better. Look forward to that.
Seth Nelson:
How long you been married now, Pete?
Pete Wright:
23 years baby and going strong.
Seth Nelson:
Nice.
Pete Wright:
It is so much better now than it was in year one. I can't even express how good it is and it can be anything you want to say. Everything about our relationship is improved. I think it's because of that mature love. It's because we also did not have the love bombing stage, but also we knew each other in middle school.
You talk about having a history before the romance started. That means something.
Seth Nelson:
Yep.
Pete Wright:
To get to know someone without the intensity there.
Seth Nelson:
Shannon, I'm going to come back to a question that is just gnawing at me, because we talked about where you were when it was horrible. We talked about where you are now, but how did you get there? Was it because you just did what you needed to do in court one step at a time, and you got that order and that gave you this power? Did you feel it come back slowly? Was it a roller coaster?
When you're in the middle of it or at the beginning of it, like you said, I would've not thought two years ago, I could be in the same room with this guy. How do you make the transition? How do you become your best self?
Shannon Jenkins:
I love that question because I totally agree. We talk about the hard bit and then the champion ending that's so wonderful. When actually the middle bit, the transition is the most difficult part when we often don't see our own progress I think.
I would say it was a roller coaster probably, but always quite high. It felt like a very intense period because there was... And I'm really not exaggerating. When I say there would be a new blow every week. I think I regularly wrote that down because I had to get to the point where I accepted that there would be something done against me, some new court filing, some refusal to comply with this, and nonpayment of something. It was endless and it was really every week.
I knew that I needed to take it one step at a time. That meant also for me having a counselor, a therapist with whom he had a focus on mindfulness. I'm very much into that now in terms of present moment living and connecting to our emotions and how our body is actually feeling because I think I needed to release the emotion that I was feeling in order to be effective in court.
In order to not react and to carefully respond to anything that was done, I needed to discharge of that emotional weight beforehand. That meant often crying my eyes out with a counselor, feeling incredibly frustrated, going to boxing classes. I was doing spinning. I was lifting weights. I needed something there for anger mainly because I was getting that anger and I wanted to get that out of me.
I'd say that those were two main things and then also keeping an open line of communication with people who I'm close with as well because I physically felt my heart closing. It was a physical thing. I can't do this. I can't do this. I want to push away. I want everyone to go away. I want to just be on my own right now. I don't trust anyone. What is happening to my life?
I think I needed to physically open that up and that would be on a regular basis. That was the whole middle bit. That would be the things that I'm just describing there with the external support, the exercise, making sure I'm taking care of my basic needs. That's often completely understated. Like sleep enough. I remember the first time somebody said meditation to me, I was like, "I can't bloody meditate. What hell? My mind is like racing 1,000,001 miles an hour."
Seth Nelson:
And they say, "Just think about your breathing."
Shannon Jenkins:
I remember I started, I think I downloaded an app like Calm and I would do a 10 minute meditation to fall asleep at night basically. To not keep playing things over in my head, or what I need to do, or ruminating on something I could've done better, or something that he has done. It would go on and on, but I needed to take care of that. Sleep enough, eat well, exercise. So important.
Pete Wright:
What a ride. What an experience. Shannon, thank you so much for sharing it.
I have to just come back around to the fact that you are now in an absolutely exalted place and it almost feels like you got the golden ticket. You went through an incredibly difficult thing and look where you landed.
Seth Nelson:
She's got Swiss chocolate.
Pete Wright:
You should be so lucky.
Seth Nelson:
And she's engaged.
Pete Wright:
Chocolate.
Seth Nelson:
I'm waiting for the save the date to hit our emails, Pete.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I know.
Seth Nelson:
Can't wait.
Pete Wright:
I know. I'm kind of surprised it hasn't hit while we were recording because I'm looking for a reason to come to Switzerland. There you go. It's out there.
Seth Nelson:
Shannon, we know there's no bullshit on this show. You are fucking impressive and we're so thrilled that you were able to join us, and talk to our listeners, and share that horrible, but uplifting, and powerful journey that you've been through. Especially the middle part because I think like you said, people miss that.
Thank you for doing that. It is just impressive and we wish you all the happiness that is well earned and deserved.
Shannon Jenkins:
Thank you and I appreciate that a lot. If my story can help people in any way that's exactly what I hope to do because I don't know if anyone's watching this, but I think my face is shining.
When I look at pictures of my face now or how I am and I compare that to where I was three years ago I am like a different person. I think it's so hard when you're facing your darkest of days that you can't see the future there. You can't see where things are going. I'm so glad I held through all of that difficult place because my life is immeasurably better and even better than I could've imagined and that's the best bit about it.
Pete Wright:
Beautiful.
Tell the people where they can go find you. We'll put links in the show notes to everything you tell us to do.
Shannon Jenkins:
That's very sweet. Thank you.
Well, you can find me on Instagram at startingoverwithshannon. Also, on TikTok. I can't believe I said TikTok, but yes, there we go. I'm giving it a go. Other than that, my main venture is my podcast where I do weekly interviews. That's also called, Starting Over With Shannon. You can find that on Apple, and Spotify, and Google, but I would be thrilled to have you over there.
Pete Wright:
We will put all those in the show notes. Thank you so, so much. Shannon it's been a real treat to meet you, to talk through your story and thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show.
Don't forget ask us questions. You can visit howtosplitatoaster.com and there's a button right there. You can push the button and you can send us a question. We would love to hear your questions about divorce even and especially high conflict divorce. Again, howtosplitatoaster.com.
On behalf of Shannon Jenkins and Starting Over With Shannon, I'm Pete and [inaudible 00:53:47].
Seth Nelson:
Almost left me out there, Pete.
Pete Wright:
I know. Well, you know what? We have issues between us.
Seth Nelson:
I know. I know we do.
Pete Wright:
Clearly.
Seth Nelson, America's divorce attorney. How's that?
Seth Nelson:
Hit me where it hurts.
Pete Wright:
I did it. I did it.
I'm Pete Wright. We'll see you next week right here on How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different.
If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
