Winning Your Divorce! with exExperts Jessica Klingbaum and T.H. Irwin
Winning Your Divorce with the exExperts T.H. Irwin and Jessica Klingbaum
Two friends who ended up getting divorced at the same time, Jessica and T.H. were frustrated as they tried finding a single source for help with divorce. That pushed them to start up their new company exExperts. There, along with their own podcast Divorce Etc..., they give people going through divorce and people figuring out how to survive and thrive after divorce advice on how to make it easier. But what does ‘winning your divorce’ mean? It doesn’t necessarily mean what you think.
They talk with Seth and Pete about learning to get through your divorce and build the future you’re wanting. To get there, it’s learning to navigate your life during the divorce process. Knowing you have the right lawyer is huge, but there’s also amazing power in your social support. They talk about the struggles people have to break through the shame around divorce. But it’s not just the shame – it’s the negative space you get lost in. People get so caught up in the vindictiveness, they lose track of what’s important.
They also tell us about their free upcoming virtual summit on May 10th-11th, 2023, called WIN YOUR DIVORCE that they’re doing with previous guest Tracy Coenen. It’s a wide-ranging conversation full of great advice.
Links & Notes
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Speaker 1:
Welcome to How To Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. Today, your toaster's ready to win your divorce.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everybody. I'm Seth Nelson. As always, I'm here with my good friend Pete Wright. The exEXPERTS are here. Jessica Klingbaum and T.H. Irwin are two best friends who got divorced at the exact same time and had completely different experiences. As the exEXPERTS, they offer professional resources to guide others through the divorce process too, along with their podcast, Divorce Etc, and their online community. T.H. and Jessica, welcome to the Toaster.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Thank you for having us. Very excited to be here.
T.H. Irwin:
Thank you. I've never been to a Toaster before.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. No, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. Gets a little hot. Pretty good. Hi guys. So glad you are here. I want to start with just a little bit of backstory because I've heard people decide to become parents at the same time and people decide to go to prom at the same time, but the planned divorce at the same time seems like something worth at least noting. Was it a dare? Did you bet? Did somebody lose a bet?
Jessica Klingbaum:
That would've been funny. I mean, we're always talking, we're always telling people, "You can't make this shit up."
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Originally, to give you a little even more backstory, because it's kind of all in the context. I've been married and divorced twice, so I really am an expert. T.H. and my first husband were best friends from high school, so she and I met when we were in college and we... Really quickly, the story, she came into a Halloween party and I'd heard all about her and she, evidently, so she says, had heard nothing about me. So I go running up to her and I'm like, "Oh my God, you're T.H." And she literally looks at me and she's like, "Where's Darren?" And I go over to him and I'm like, "That's your best friend? She's a bitch."
I was pre-gaming, I was a senior in college, and this little thing that weighs 80 pounds wet is in my face. My nose could touch her. And I don't even remember the story, but now I feel like I own the story and so I defend myself in a story I don't exactly remember.
Pete Wright:
This is great. I love that we're in the airing of grievances part of the show.
Jessica Klingbaum:
So it was an auspicious start, but a couple years later, once everybody had graduated, we all lived in the city. T.H. was dating the guy that she was going to end up marrying. We all became best friends. T.H. and I became best friends, our guys became best friends. We ended up getting engaged within a month of each other, married within a month of each other, and then living life together, traveling as couples together. Thirteen years down the line, within one week of each other, we both found out that each of our husbands were cheating on us and covering for each other. They were traveling on couples trips with their girlfriends while we were home working and raising the kids.
T.H. Irwin:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
What the actual shit is that about?
Jessica Klingbaum:
That's not even the tip of iceberg, but that's enough for a holy crap moment.
T.H. Irwin:
But that's story about why we ended up literally getting divorced at the same time.
Pete Wright:
Oh my God. I don't... I'm gobsmacked
Seth Nelson:
You guys should see Pete right now. His jaw is dropping.
T.H. Irwin:
On the ground.
Seth Nelson:
Pete is never speechless.
Pete Wright:
The massive balls on these guys to think that they could... That is extraordinary.
T.H. Irwin:
Yes.
Jessica Klingbaum:
See, I have a different perspective.
Speaker 1:
I
Jessica Klingbaum:
Don't think they're massive. I think they have no balls because they didn't come and say they wanted a divorce. They didn't say they were unhappy in the marriage. We had zero communication, and my husband at the time was actually engaged to the woman he was having a four-year affair with. She called me to make sure I wasn't married to him anymore because she was engaged. So I think actually their balls are so small that they don't exist because they didn't have the nerve to come clean and be a decent human being.
Pete Wright:
In most cases, to be fair, the bigger the balls, the less utility you have for them.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Okay, the more we know.
Pete Wright:
I just want to make sure.
T.H. Irwin:
Massive balls.
Pete Wright:
Massive balls.
Seth Nelson:
Wow, Pete. Let me tell you.
Pete Wright:
Totally useless.
Seth Nelson:
I never thought you should be a lawyer till you just made that argument. That was the best save you've ever done.
Pete Wright:
This is the only show I can make these kinds of saves on though, too. That is an amazing story and well deserved that you end up doing this gig together. So when did you decide, "Okay, we've been through all of this together. Let's go ahead and start a business and help other people." What was that conversation like? Was it just immediate?
Jessica Klingbaum:
It was pretty immediate, but the problem was for me... Well, this wasn't the problem. I was thrilled to be out of my divorce. It was a saving grace, and I actually told her that day that she saved my life. So that was the first day of the rest of my life when I got that call.
But he is a narcissist, a true narcissist, and dragged me through court for four years. Multiple experts, a shit ton of money, a waste of time and emotion, trauma for all of us. And by the way, he was still engaged to this woman. So I could not create a resource to help others when I was first like, "I don't even know what the divorce process is." I was ready personally to run on with the rest of my life, but the process is just debilitating if you're divorcing somebody like that. So it couldn't happen right away, even though we thought of it right away.
Pete Wright:
Right, right.
T.H. Irwin:
At the time, what we were talking about was doing some kind of a call-in radio show, something where people could call in and ask questions. I mean something where, as we were going through our divorce, we had each other every single day, every step of the way. Our divorces were totally different. I ended up having a very amicable divorce. I'm really close with my ex. We acknowledge to each other how lucky we were that we were in the weeds with each other the whole time.
I always use the analogy of it's like when you have a new baby. If you have a new baby, everyone around you is like, "How's the baby?" And everyone just wants to hear, "The baby's great." But if you have a friend who also has a new baby, they're like, "How many hours did they sleep last night? How many dirty diapers did you change?" All of the nitpicky intricacies of what's going on, and that was, "What'd your lawyer tell you today?" "Hey, did you hear about this? Did you know about this?"
We're in different states just over the bridge from New York City to New Jersey, but our divorces looked the same on the outside because of the circumstances, so we did have a lot in common. So that was a lot of it. We need to figure out a way to help people, be in the weeds with them when they're going through it, because what the hell would we have done individually if we were going through this alone-
Jessica Klingbaum:
Right.
T.H. Irwin:
... Was the impetus of all of it.
Jessica Klingbaum:
As it turns out, we had new careers, both of us, and then about seven months before COVID, I was ready for a change again. So I'm looking online and when we were separated, there were no resources at all online. Nothing. Now there's too much information. There are too many ads, there are too many answers, it's just cluttered. So we thought, "You know what? Let's clear the clutter. Let's find the best resources. Let's educate people."
I feel like that was definitely a miss in my divorce for all that money and time. I learned nothing. I didn't learn how to manage my finances. I didn't learn, really, any of the stuff that was being negotiated. It was just kind of like, "Okay, you're done now. Good luck."
Seth Nelson:
And T told me, Pete, because I talked to her before, she says, "Look, we want to find good people to put out good information and when you run out of them, then we're going to come to How to Split a Toaster." So here we are.
T.H. Irwin:
Exactly. So here we are, rock bottom today.
Pete Wright:
So you're telling us we made the list?
Jessica Klingbaum:
Saying there's a chance.
Pete Wright:
That is an extraordinary story and I kind of want to see, did they get married? Just to end the drama for me, did they get married or did she come to her senses?
Jessica Klingbaum:
Oh no, she came to her senses for a hot minute. She got a bigger ring. They're married and they have a five-year-old.
Pete Wright:
Wow. Wow.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Eyes wide open. Not my problem.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, not your problem. Not your problem. I think it's a story that, well, it highlights a couple of things for me. The first of which, obviously, about having good resources, and it's one of the reasons we like doing this show is because being able to illuminate the legal process part of the divorce is so important and it is something that can feel so inhuman for people going through it, right?
It's such a mechanical churning of meat process that can be really, really challenging. And so being able to talk about that in a human way, I think, is really important and something to really highlight about your community and your own podcast, Divorce Etc. I think the other piece is about the power of the social support.
T.H. Irwin:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
That there's so much shame that can peek through the divorce process and the idea of, we always say shame hates the sun. When you have someone to share these feelings of desolation that you have going through this process, it evaporates a little bit. A little bit.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Yeah. I mean we talk a lot about the stigma around divorce in general, whether it's cultural in America, whether it's for religious reasons, whatever it is, there is still so much stigma and shame around it and people don't want to talk about it. In lots of different situations.
I realize I was getting divorced on a Thursday night. Monday morning, I was starting a new job, the biggest job at that point that I'd had in my career. And I went in wearing my ring for the next three months because I was too afraid to let anyone there know that I was getting divorced because I was running a national network news show and I felt like no one was going to think that I was going to be able to stay focused on doing my job well. So whether it's work related or whether it's personal, people feel like divorce is contagious.
They don't want their kids playing with your kids or you can't do X, Y, or Z. You're right. And so the shame around it is a huge part of the problem and we really are looking to break through that with ExEXPERTS. We talk about it all the time. Not everyone needs to walk around feeling like divorce is a badge of honor. We've had many conversations and we have different opinions on it.
T.H. feels like divorce does not define her. It's just something that she went through. For me, it's not that I'm proud of the fact that my marriages didn't work, but I feel like the fact that I got through what I got through and was able to end up on my feet and still have an optimistic and positive outlook and take care of all the shit that I need to take care of every day with the kids and work and whatever, I am proud of what I've gone through and come out on the other side.
So it's a conversation that needs to be louder. It's like, a weak analogy, but mental health is thankfully, finally coming to the forefront. People are talking about it. When you don't talk about it, you're hiding it and you're contributing to the problem. You got to talk about it. Not everyone's going to agree with it, but it should be a conversation.
Pete Wright:
I just want to finish that. You starting talking about a national newsroom. Wearing your ring for three months in a newsroom because you're afraid of the stigma of divorce seems like, and I hope you echo this in hindsight, an oxymoronic position because most of those people were probably already divorced.
Jessica Klingbaum:
It wasn't about that. I knew my direct report, the vice presidents, both of them were still married. It was more like I was a new entity at this network and despite my experience and what I was bringing to the table, I just was afraid they were going to think that my mind was going to be elsewhere.
So yes, probably a million people around in the newsroom were divorced, but they weren't necessarily starting their divorce the day they were starting their new job.
T.H. Irwin:
And it doesn't stop them from judging you anyway.
Pete Wright:
Of course not. So the big question for me is what happens at the end of three months that causes you to be able to say, "Okay, I'm going to own this part of my identity today."
Jessica Klingbaum:
I think it was just a gradual progression. So I wore my ring most of the time and maybe one day a week or two, then I wouldn't wear my engagement ring. I was just wearing the wedding band. So it was kind of like I was phasing it out, hoping that-
Seth Nelson:
And every Thursday she was going out on dates and it was on her calendar.
Jessica Klingbaum:
And hoping no one would notice.
Pete Wright:
Date night.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Exactly. So I feel like by the time I was in it for enough months where I felt confident with the show, confident with the ratings, confident that I was doing a good job and that they were pleased with my performance is probably when I started dripping on them, like, "Yeah, I'm going through some stuff at home," but I didn't think I ever said it happened two days before I started here. It was more I felt like I needed to prove myself first and have them be like, "Oh, she's already been going through all this. It's all going to be fine."
T.H. Irwin:
But that was also probably a little bit proving it to yourself and also a little bit adjusting to the fact that, "Holy, I just asked for divorce. I had the worst weekend ever, and I'm not ready to take it all on."
Jessica Klingbaum:
I think I was very appreciative of the fact that I had something that was so all consuming-
T.H. Irwin:
Right. To keep you up at night.
Jessica Klingbaum:
... That I couldn't focus on anything else while I was at work. I had a show to put on every day.
Pete Wright:
Every day.
Jessica Klingbaum:
I couldn't... Right. There was no room for anything else. That, for me, was really good.
Seth Nelson:
Well, I was about to talk about that because people going through a divorce I find either do one of two ways. It just consumes their every waking moment and their job performance plummets, which is the last thing you want to have happen during a divorce, or they get very hyper focused and compartmentalized. I'd love those clients.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Because I'm like, "I'm going to send you homework. Get to it when you get to it. Don't think about this," and they'll want to call me. Some clients want to call all day long, all day long, all day long or every single day. There is not necessarily legal work to be done on a case every single day. And if there is, there's a problem.
So for example, you get a new case in, you meet, you talk about it, maybe you get them in the week later to work on a parenting plan, but then you file for divorce and then you send out the discovery. I'm waiting 30 days now for the paperwork to come back. Now, our client might have given us some stuff and we might be processing it, but I just sent out a request for production, all these documents, interrogatories, which are sworn answers, I'm asking questions, they have to swear their answers and give them back. Well, they're allowed 30 days, so nothing's going to happen in that timeframe if we need that information.
Now, if we don't need the information, we might request it in case we need it later, but let's try to get the case settled if you have enough information. So if you're talking to your lawyer every day, every couple days, that means there's a problem. There's a lot of parenting problems, people are being nasty to each other, there's violence.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, because there's 30 days where you as a client have very little chill in most cases. I have to imagine that is an incredibly stressful time, and as the attorney, you've got 30 days to wait. So let's move on to another case.
T.H. Irwin:
But that also brings up a good point, which is a lot of the reasoning on the mission behind exEXPERTS in regards to education. People who aren't lawyers don't know what that process is. And so we talk a lot about how to know when you're choosing the right lawyer and how to choose the right lawyer for you. Because if you're explaining all of that to the clients, I mean, look, there are going to be some people who are agitated and anxious all the time and calling every day like Seth is saying.
But a lot of it, sometimes for people that I speak to, is they don't understand. They don't know what's going on. They don't know what their lawyer's doing. They don't know what they're waiting for. It hasn't been explained to them properly. And that lack of understanding and education is also a big problem when it comes to divorce.
Seth Nelson:
And there's the human nature. When you don't know and you don't understand, you assume the worst.
T.H. Irwin:
Of course. Absolutely. We preach all about the fact that your lawyer is not your therapist. And by the way, I did have an excellent therapist, but at the very beginning, I felt like my lawyer needs to know this. I'm getting 30 text messages all night long harassing me. So that's like the off hours in between. While discovery is happening, there's harassment and not showing up for the parenting that's temporarily scheduled, those kinds of things. So I didn't know what my lawyer was going to do, but I just felt like my lawyer's got to know this, and meanwhile I'm paying her to just know this and nothing's really going to change.
So to be on the client's side, I'm just saying the problem is you don't know where to go. This is part of my divorce. This is not a therapy session, but it is a therapy session to learn how to manage those things. But it's also a legal issue because my lawyer didn't say, "You don't need to send me all of this. I don't need to read all of the text messages on Monday. You tell me how many times he texted you over a 48-hour period, and I'll handle it, but I don't need to read it." She never said that to me.
Seth Nelson:
Right, and I have this conversation, and what we do is when they tell me, "Hey, this is what's happening," this is the advice I give to all of them. I first ask them a question. Every client I've ever asked this question to gets it wrong. And the question is, "Why do you have a phone?" Pete? Why do you have a phone
Pete Wright:
So that you can use me as an example in conversations like this?
Jessica Klingbaum:
Seth, why do you have a phone?
Seth Nelson:
For my convenience. That's why we have phones. Some people say, "Well, so I can call my kids or so I can track them or so I can make reservations." It's for convenience and it's for your convenience. It is not a gateway to allow a third party, your ex or the person you're divorcing, to fuck with you. That's not why you have the phone. So I say that and then I say, "Listen, this is the extreme thing to do. Get a new phone and only give that number to the people that will not share it with them, and slowly transfer people over to your new phone, because ultimately the phone that you have, only one person's going to be calling it. And when it goes off, you know what it is and you don't have to check it every minute of the day."
Jessica Klingbaum:
Right, right, right. That's great.
Seth Nelson:
So there's ways to handle that. And then about reading every text message, we have an app that we use where you would bring in your phone and I would plug it in and I can download every single text message that he sent you back and forth.
T.H. Irwin:
Well, that's now. Not back then, by the way.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Not back then.
Pete Wright:
Well, and I just want to throw in here, to T.H.'s point, there is a line at some point where the harassment becomes more serious. Something that the attorney should probably know about and take action on. At what point does that line get drawn where you as a client... I don't know what's most appropriate, but I know that now it's gone from 40 text messages a night, to, "I think there's somebody in my yard at night looking in my windows." Those are the kinds of things that, as a client, you might not know, but actually might be something that your attorney could do something about. Right?
T.H. Irwin:
Well, I could have just said, "This is how many messages," or, "He texted me all weekend long harassing me." I didn't have to send the actual text messages to spend the time for her to read them, because she doesn't really care what he wrote in them. It doesn't really matter for my case, but you become anxious and you become isolated and then you get into your own head.
So I see my therapist once a week. I talk to my lawyer once a week. Who's helping me in between all of that? Which is why we started exEXPERTS, because we totally get it. And those are not the people to go to anyway on the off chance that parenting didn't go well on the weekend where you don't have your kids this weekend, you don't know what to do and you're freaking out, or it's Mother's Day and how do I schedule that? All the other stuff. And there's a lot, because then life starts to happen.
Pete Wright:
For sure.
Seth, according to the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, 10% of children live with a parent with an alcohol use disorder. We got to put a stop to this. We've just got to stop it.
Seth Nelson:
Well, I wish we could, Pete. Some things are probably beyond our capabilities because it's a disease.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, and we're just a podcast.
Seth Nelson:
That's right. But if you are being accused of having alcoholism or being an alcoholic, which I don't even saying it that way-
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
... Because it sounds negative, like you're doing something wrong that you can control. Look, it's a disease.
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm.
Seth Nelson:
But it's a disease that can severely negatively impact your children, and so how do we maintain sobriety and a check on sobriety when you're with your children so you can spend quality time with them? And that's what Soberlink is all about.
Pete Wright:
That is what Soberlink is all about. What is Soberlink? So Soberlink is a device and a service. The device is like a breathalyzer, but more so. It has a facial recognition sensor in it. The whole idea behind Soberlink is when it comes time for you to drive, to be in the car with your kids for handoffs, carpools, whatever the case may be, you blow into the Soberlink device and it sends a real-time notification to those who need to know. Council, co-parent, whoever needs to know that you are safe with your kids at the time of driving.
And that is in everybody's best interest. It's in your best interest to prove that you aren't living with a problem with alcohol or even if you are struggling with alcohol, that you're safe with your kids at the time you're driving. And it can be trusted by your co-parent because again, facial recognition, incredibly valuable data being collected by this device.
Seth Nelson:
And Pete, it's independent third party verification that happens instantaneously that you have not been drinking. And so it's not just when you're getting in and out of the car, but you can do it in the morning, you can do it in the afternoon, you can do it at night because then there's three points of time when they know the children are safe. And it immediately takes away the weaponization of arguing about alcoholism if you can do that and it's all 0.00.
So I encourage people. Do it. You're going to save some money on litigation, a lot of money. And the courts love it because they know what's really important. They can see the data that they don't have to say, "He said, she said," anymore.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Soberlink's remote alcohol monitoring tool has helped over a half a million people prove their sobriety and provide peace of mind, and you can get started right now with 50 bucks off your device. Just visit soberlink.com/toaster. That's soberlink.com/toaster. Thank you to Soberlink for sponsoring this show.
I want to talk a little bit about the event that you have coming up because it looks like a fantastic event, and, in fact, your partner in that event, Tracy Conan, listeners of this show you just heard Tracy on this show.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Yep.
Pete Wright:
Just here. Feels like yesterday. The Win Your Divorce summit is coming up. Is that the guarantee? You go to the summit, you're going to win your divorce?
Jessica Klingbaum:
It's a guarantee that you'll win if you understand what it means to win your divorce.
T.H. Irwin:
Yeah.
Jessica Klingbaum:
And we do talk about, that does not mean raking someone over the coals or taking someone for all their worth. That's not what we consider a win. What's the expression they say? A good compromise means that both parties walk away a little disappointed.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Jessica Klingbaum:
To win your divorce, we think that it's really more of a family-focused, kid-centric result where you're putting the things that matter most at the forefront. Love your kids more than you hate your ex. And we talk about different strategies. Some of it is what you can do for yourself, and then some of it does have to do with, look, the truth of the matter is there are people who hide money. There are people who do very shady things and try to pull the wool over their spouse's eyes when they're getting divorced.
So we have a lot of sessions that go through things that you really do need to know that might sound scary. I don't know, do you need a forensic accountant, a private investigator? Those kind of things. But a lot of it is winning in the way that what you've done is right, that you can look back and everyone can be proud of it in a way. No one treated the other one really unfairly or did anything dirty. That's, for us, generally the idea of winning your divorce.
Seth Nelson:
Let's talk about that a little bit more, because it is a common thing that lawyers will say is, "No one wins here," And the judge will say, "No one wins here". And I talk a lot with my clients about exactly what you're saying. We need to get away from percentages of how often we see our kids. You've never thought of a percentage before until you're forced to go through this divorce process. You've never really thought about how much money can I receive from my spouse's paycheck, right? It's "We're married. The money goes in." Maybe, "I'm a bit of a spender, he's a bit of a saver," or vice versa. "I don't really know all the stuff where the money is. I just trust him. I run the credit card, it gets paid," right? "Oh, taxes came through? Sure, I'll sign off on them," because we're busy living our lives.
So when I'm working with clients, one of the first thing I ask in every single potential client meeting I have is, "What is your goal for this conversation?" And they'll say, "I want to get divorced. I want to keep the house." I say, "No, no, no, no. I can't get you divorced today. I can't keep your house today. When you leave here and you call someone who's your support system, I would like you to say, 'That was a good conversation. I didn't like everything Seth said because Florida law sucks, but at least I know that I'm hearing what I need to hear, not what I just want to hear.'"
And we try to do that with all the conversations because what happens a lot with clients, to T's point, they just want to tell the lawyer and they start telling me this really long story. I'm trying to do an analysis to figure out what is relevant in that story and what is not. There's a lot of very minute detailed type of facts that are flying my way, and I don't know what the question is. So I always ask them, "Start with your question and then tell me the story, and then I can focus with you on what it means to win. And winning partially is how you decide to go through this process."
Not just reacting to what the other person does. We have to respond. And the difference in my mind is a reaction has no thought, response does. Take it in, breathe, put down the phone, go enjoy dinner, spend time with your kids. When people call me and their kids are in the car, my first thing I say is, "Call me when your kids are not with you. You're never getting this time back. Go spend quality time with your children. I will talk to you at 9:00 when you put them to bed at 8:30, that's fine. But spend the time. Win the day. Every single moment you have with your kids that day, you win because you're with them."
T.H. Irwin:
Yeah. Being present during turmoil and trauma is hard. Also, people hold too tight to their kids. They hold on too tight. It's just finding the balance. It takes a little bit, takes a minute to get into a groove to absorb what's happening, have an action plan, be comfortable with the legal team. There is just a lot. So I so appreciate what you said, Seth, and I so wish you were my lawyer, but-
Seth Nelson:
Well, next time.
T.H. Irwin:
Yeah, [inaudible 00:30:28]. But I've learned so much because of the poor behavior of my lawyer. And so people are like, "Well, you got a good settlement." I'm like, "You don't even know how much money and heartache I had to spend to get a good settlement. What does that even mean?"
So when we talk about winning your divorce, it's also, "What do I need for me? What does the best outcome for me and my kids look like?" And Jessica and I do private sessions with people and we really start with, "Where do you see yourself in five years? Are you still living in Jersey? Are you living in Florida? Okay, are you working? Are you not working? Let's start going backwards on what this picture looks like. Your kids are already in college, so you don't need a huge house anymore. What things do you love to do? I love to go fishing. Okay, do you want to live in a place like that?"
So those are the things that make it a win. If you can create your outcome or kind of foresee a picture that's realistic for yourself and your kids, and then work backwards. So that's really a big lesson we've learned from many of our experts through our podcast, Divorce Etc, and that really leads to the win. How can I be comfortable, have a roof over my head, put my head on the pillow every night and be able to have a good night's sleep? That's a win. That's a huge win.
Seth Nelson:
Along with that of trying to look forward is financial. Because what I say all the time, and Pete, we've talked about it when we've had the financial experts on the case, I can tell you with pretty clear confidence that your case is going to settle within this fairly narrow range. And this is what I can "get you," whether that's assets, him paying debts, whether it's alimony or child support, whatever the financial issue we're talking about, I can tell you the in narrow range what the law should do.
One, I can never tell you that the judge will do it. They get it wrong all the time. But I can never tell you what that money will do for you. And that's where you're talking about where are you going to be in five years. So I do talk to clients about, "Okay, do we want to keep the house so the kids stay in the school district?"
T.H. Irwin:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
"Is important to you?"
T.H. Irwin:
Depends on where you are. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right, right. Or, "Does it not matter because they're in private school, so you can live anywhere and we can have a bigger range on where to go and what to do?" And sometimes when you don't look at a case as just who gets what, as opposed to why is one person keeping this asset, what is the underlying proposition that's driving that person to say, "I want the house. I want the house. I want the house." "Well, I want the house because I want the kids to stay in it for just three more years till they graduate." Well, that's a different conversation.
T.H. Irwin:
Absolutely. So the win is to be good with yourself, to be comfortable with yourself. You're going to make compromises. There are sacrifices, but the most important things, you know, you have to be realistic about it. It's not because you got this painting, and meanwhile, I was stuck with a couch that I had to have someone haul off for me.
I mean, it just becomes silly. So don't let it be silly. Really focus on the most important things in your life, your family, your health, yourself, where you live, what you want to do.
Seth Nelson:
Right, but T, you just touched upon things that people don't talk about enough. And what you're touching upon is we can go argue over this stuff, but you only have so much bandwidth. Jessica had a job to do. She wants to get through this divorce as quickly as possible so she can go focus on her life, right? Now, what is that mental health good for? What are you willing to give up financially? Or what are you willing to give up so you can be done?
Jessica Klingbaum:
That's such, to me, that's literally the million-dollar question, and I talk about that a lot because I definitely left a lot on the table in both divorces. For me, my emotional wellbeing and being able to continue friendships with my exes outweighed how much I could have gotten out of this or this in the divorce. And you do, you have to decide, how much is the money actually worth?
Seth Nelson:
That's right.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Because when you amortized it over however many years you have left to live, is that really going to make a big difference in your life? But people are so caught up in the resentment and the anger and the vindictiveness while they're in the process of it, that they really do lose sight of the bigger picture. And that's such an important thing
Pete Wright:
Because the money is how we keep score though, right?
Jessica Klingbaum:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, exactly, Pete.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Because that you can actually track, not the trauma of your kids at night going to sleep, and not the lack of eating and not the problems in school and problems in work. Really, it's a money game.
Pete Wright:
Well, exactly. And this is the whole thing though, right? Because just to Jessica's point, we have to talk about the value. How much is that money worth? An economist is going to answer something very different than somebody who's in the middle of a divorce process and clocking the actual value of that money.
Seth Nelson:
There's another problem here that I speak a lot about to my clients. They call me and they're like, "I'm done. I want a divorce. I've been dealing with this for X number of years. I'm done." And I said, "That's great. You're telling me you are done with the emotional divorce. The legal process, the legal divorce is just starting and that takes anywhere from six to 18 months and could be longer." And they said, "Oh my God, it's going to take that long?" And I said, "No, I can get your case done in five minutes." And they get very excited and they go, "How do you do that?" And I say, "It's easy. Accept their offer."
Jessica Klingbaum:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
They're like, "Oh, I can't do that." Well, there's the rub.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
You can always end it by accepting the offer.
T.H. Irwin:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
And that is a choice that you have. And literally, I have gone to cases where I just couldn't get an offer out of them because they're not required to give you one. But when you tee it up for trial and the judge says, "We're having a pretrial conference," and five days before that pretrial conference, you have to submit what parenting plan you want the court to rule on. You have to submit your equitable distribution sheet. You have to submit your alimony calculations. You have to submit your child support calculations. You have to submit how much you're asking for fees.
And then we get that, and you walk into court and the judge goes, "Mr. Nelson, do we need three days to try this case?" "No, your Honor, I think we need about 20 minutes because we're left with one issue." And they look at me like, "What are you talking about?" And I say, "Judge, we accept everything on their sheet except for X."
T.H. Irwin:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
And you want to take some wind out of people's sails. When they don't get to court and they don't get to have a third party judge tell them that they're right-
Jessica Klingbaum:
Yes. Yeah,
Seth Nelson:
They lose.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
You just won.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Except they've spent so much time and energy and money getting to court. That in and of itself... Seth, what you said, we've heard so many lawyers say that. "I can predict within an inch of where your case is going to come down and how the money is going to be divided and what the custody's going to look like", and the idea that then people will still continue to fight for two years and end up within the inch of what you said in the beginning. It's like they just lose sight of it.
T.H. Irwin:
Because it's the emotions that screw it all up.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. My human emotion demands to be heard.
T.H. Irwin:
Yes, people want to be heard.
Seth Nelson:
Jessica, to you point that, and T, that, "Well, people spend all this money." That's a fallacy in negotiations, and I call it the buying a car issue. The longer you sit there when you're negotiating that car deal, the higher likelihood you are going to purchase that car because you've invested effort in the process.
T.H. Irwin:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
And now you're already here and you don't want to go through this process again, and I'm going to get in trouble if my fiancee listens to this because her family's in the car business so being careful here, but that's the same in divorce. "I've invested all this time and we're on the eve of trial. I want my day in court."
Jessica Klingbaum:
That was literally T.H.'s story. They settled the morning of.
T.H. Irwin:
That's what I said. We settled two minutes before trial and they said to settle-
Jessica Klingbaum:
After four years.
T.H. Irwin:
... And I'm like, "What? We just spent all this time and money. We are going to trial." And my dad said, "No way."
Seth Nelson:
That's right.
T.H. Irwin:
"We are not spending another second, another penny on this. We're signing on the dotted line. See you never. We're never coming back to the courthouse again." And that's what I did.
Pete Wright:
Wow.
T.H. Irwin:
But it's just amazing how that happens because honestly, I was out. I was done. So I was in a scenario with someone and two bulldog lawyers who dragged me through everything. As you're talking about all the things you needed to do, he had someone come in and app appraise all of my grandmother's art that was hanging in my house. He had me go to an employability expert. I have a master's degree. So, okay, great. I can make $100,000, but where's the job? I don't want you to tell me how much I can make. I want you to show me the job.
Seth Nelson:
In Florida, they actually have to show that there's a job available within a certain geographical location. So I love it, T, when someone says, "Oh, I'm going to do a vocational evaluation on your client." I said, "Awesome," and they're always shocked. And they're like, "What?" And I'm like-
T.H. Irwin:
You're going to find them a job.
Seth Nelson:
"You're literally going to have your client pay to be my client's job coach."
Pete Wright:
Job coach. Yeah, exactly.
Seth Nelson:
That's awesome.
Pete Wright:
Amazing.
Jessica Klingbaum:
That is awesome.
Seth Nelson:
"Because she's been applying for 50 jobs a week and hasn't gotten a bite. Appreciate it. When are they available?"
Jessica Klingbaum:
Yeah. That's so funny.
Seth Nelson:
Right?
Pete Wright:
It can't happen soon enough.
T.H. Irwin:
Crazy. But that's why all of that, and also for me, it wasn't really shame about the divorce. He was bad. He was ugly. The stuff he did was atrocious. The lying was colossal. I was definitely the sweetest smelling flower in the room, but the process itself is humbling.
I went to take a test for the employability expert. I walked out and my lawyer was like, "How'd you do?" I'm like, "I think I did well." She's like, "You could have done badly on this test." I was like, "I can't even do well on the test for a job that's not even out there." Can't get a freaking one.
But that was a waste of time. A waste of time, and that's the kind of stuff that was shameful for me. I was being shamed in those circumstances.
Seth Nelson:
One of those things, T, is, I'm not trying to Monday morning quarterback this, right? Because here's how this goes. I say to the other side, "She has a master's degree. What do you want to impute her income as?" Right? But now they have to give me a number for me to agree to. So if they don't give me a number, then I'm going to be like, "Oh yeah. You're stuck going through this."
T.H. Irwin:
Right. So all of that exercise, he never imputed income on me. Waste of time and money, just to put me in a position of feeling like crap about myself and then we're good.
Jessica Klingbaum:
But I never had to go through that. And so I can only imagine-
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, because you're making TV shows left and right.
Jessica Klingbaum:
No, no, no, no, but-
Seth Nelson:
"I just got the best job of my life. Let's impute more income to her."
Jessica Klingbaum:
But it wasn't that. I'm just saying there are so many different kinds of experts and so many people that you could be subject to have to be meeting in your divorce, and it's so scary. And when you are doing that and you don't have someone who's kind of in it with you the way that we were together, that that's what we want to try to help people so that they understand all of the different elements and all of the different pieces that go into divorce that could go into their divorce so that they're not as worried when they go into it.
We did something recently with the parent coordinator. It might sound really scary to someone to have to have a parent coordinator, but when we spoke to the parent coordinator and the way she explained it, it actually can end up being a huge benefit and an asset to someone in their divorce. So as long as people understand the process and know what they're going through, it will alleviate a lot of the stress and anxiety if they're properly informed.
T.H. Irwin:
And one more thing, really, is we are shining examples that you are going to be so fine. It really is okay. Number one, you're not alone. 50% of all marriages plus another 20 of misery in other relationships are out there. You are not alone, and everybody's been through their own version of crap as far as divorce is concerned. I mean, Jessica, she had a small version of crap because she had to deal with it. The resolution was easier, but you are going to be okay as long as you take the time to learn.
Don't ignore the importance of knowledge and standing up for yourself and asking hard questions and challenging people. And you will be heard and you'll be appreciated, and you'll be supported. And the purpose of us is to give you that education. So if you go and you see Seth, you know what questions to ask Seth. You are prepared for that meeting. You are now taking charge of your life. And only you can do that.
Only you can take care of yourself, learn for yourself and empower yourself. And Jessica and I are here to help you with all the other crap, but also to guide you on the right education and the right resources. Don't go to the Facebook group where it's a trauma dump and you're going to sit in your pain pit because you're going to be yelling like everybody else is yelling.
Jessica Klingbaum:
And listening to the toxicity.
T.H. Irwin:
So not good. Understood. Go and yell and then let's keep moving forward.
Seth Nelson:
When you do that, you save yourself money.
Jessica Klingbaum:
That's right.
Seth Nelson:
You save yourself money. You'll be paying for your children's college education and not my son's college education.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
Because you're doing that hard work at a lower rate when you're going to find real world experience and true knowledge on the process and demystifying the process. So when you go talk to your lawyer, you'll be organized. Pete, we've done shows like this. What do you need to do when you first interview a lawyer? If you're doing all the talking, it's a problem.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right. Then you're subverting your own therapy at a very expensive rate.
Seth Nelson:
All the listeners need to save some money and get on your summit coming up.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Summit is coming up. Tell us a little bit more about summit's coming up May 10th and 11th. What can people expect?
T.H. Irwin:
So it's May 10th and 11th. It kicks off on both days at noon eastern time. It starts and ends each day with a live session. Some of the live sessions are Divorcing a Difficult Person or Narcissist, What You Can Control in Your Divorce, Hidden Money, and Co-Parenting and Family Matters.
So those are what the four live sessions are about. We have amazing experts participating in each of those live sessions. And then between each of them, we have pre-recorded sessions that you should take out your notebook and a pencil for, because it talks about forensics, it talks about your own therapy. It talks about how you can live your life. It talks about parenting plans, child support, spousal support, the purpose of it, what the experts are, the types of divorce that you can engage in.
When Jessica and I got divorced from our husbands, you got a divorce. We didn't get a whole menu to choose from. Well, you guys have a whole menu of options here. And how to pick the right lawyer. All of this [inaudible 00:47:28].
Seth Nelson:
It's called a la carte divorce. It's one of my favorite games to play.
T.H. Irwin:
So we educate you on everything you need. This is for people who are thinking about it and who are in the thick of divorce. And if it's not you directly listening to this podcast, I have a feeling you know somebody who could use this summit. So that's what it's all about. It's all online. It's virtual. Your identity and privacy will be respected and maintained so you can engage and contribute in a way that works for you.
Pete Wright:
We will put the links in the show notes, so just swipe up in your podcast app and you'll see it down there in the show notes. Just scroll down, you'll find it. And we appreciate you looking at that.
Seth Nelson:
Now, before we wrap up, I have a question for both of you.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Do you have any interest in getting remarried?
Jessica Klingbaum:
I do.
Seth Nelson:
Jessica didn't hesitate at all.
Jessica Klingbaum:
I didn't. Yeah, I kind of was a little soured on it after my second divorce, but I feel like over the past year, I've definitely opened up to it. And not because there's a specific person that I'm looking to marry, but I believe in marriage and that's what I want in terms of a long-term relationship.
T.H. Irwin:
So this is not to dismiss what Jessica says, because she's the eternal optimist and it's awesome and all of those things. She's always liked a married life. For me now, because of the type of marriage I had been in, I am in the most amazing relationship ever. If I were to get married, it would only be to him. We have a home together, our families are together. We're all connected on all of that.
So for me, it's less about marriage per se, and a marriage contract. I have what it takes to have the greatest relationship for the rest of my life, and if there's a certificate that goes with it, great. If there isn't, great. It doesn't really matter because I have the foundation now because of where I am, how I've grown, and he and I are in the same place. And so that's my answer.
Pete Wright:
Both of those are absolutely lovely answers, especially because Seth is on the verge of getting married again.
T.H. Irwin:
I know.
Pete Wright:
And so I think he's fishing. I think he's fishing for people to just support his decision.
Seth Nelson:
No, no. But here's the interesting part. I was in Jessica's camp. Absolutely yes. My fiancee was in T.H.'s camp for a really long time.
Pete Wright:
Really long time.
Seth Nelson:
No, she had no desire to get married again. She was like, "I'm in a committed relationship. Things are great. Why do we need a piece of paper? Why do we need this? Why do we need that?" And she went to therapy on that. I went to therapy on that. And literally when the question became, "Seth, well, why do you want to get married again?" I'm like, "It's in my DNA. I can't even explain it." And I did a lot of therapy on that.
So then ultimately we split up. Now, part of the reason we split up was because I wanted to get married and she did not. If she was on this show, she would tell you a different story about that, and I would concede that her story is correct because it's just smarter to do that.
T.H. Irwin:
That's right?
Seth Nelson:
Right? But part of the deal is when we started talking again, I said, "I can't even do this again. I love you too much. It was too painful breaking up. Unless I know we're going to get married and unless we can say, 'This is when we're getting married,'" and we worked it out. And so yes, I am getting-
T.H. Irwin:
When are you getting married?
Seth Nelson:
July 4th.
T.H. Irwin:
Oh my God. So soon. Okay. Okay. Well, congratulations.
Seth Nelson:
It's been like 13 years and then we've been engaged for a year and a half. No one has said, "So soon."
Pete Wright:
So soon, yeah. That's correct.
T.H. Irwin:
Okay. Well, soon from now.
Pete Wright:
It happens very slowly and then very, very quickly.
T.H. Irwin:
That's great. I love hearing that.
Seth Nelson:
But I really love both those answers because they're both correct. They're just different. Not right or wrong, I should say.
T.H. Irwin:
Yep. And for us, I mean, we are the bestest of friends. The fact that we opened a business together, we've been through all this shit together, whatever, we have different perspectives on things.
So when you listen to us on our podcast or you do sessions with us or whatever it is, and every week we have a newsletter that goes out with a note one week from Jessica, one week from me, you're going to resonate with one of us or both of us. So we have very different perspectives on things. So I think people appreciate that.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Well, it's wonderful to have you both here. Find the links in the show notes. Exexperts.com, the podcast is Divorced Etc, where finer podcasts are served. Definitely go listen to it. It's great. You guys are wonderful. Thank you for hanging out with us today. Thanks
T.H. Irwin:
So much for having us. It's been really fun.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Thank you so much. This was a great end of my day.
Pete Wright:
Oh, good. That's a perfect... I think I'm going to end my day too.
Jessica Klingbaum:
Happy hour, right?
Pete Wright:
I've got hours left in my day, but I could start drinking anytime. Whatever works. It's fine.
Jessica Klingbaum:
It's 5:00 somewhere. Let's go.
Pete Wright:
Well, we sure appreciate all of you for downloading and listening to this show. We appreciate your time and your attention. On behalf of Jessica and T.H., and don't forget, Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney, I'm Pete Wright. We'll catch you right here next time on How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different.
If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
