Résumé Revamp: Post-Divorce Job Hunting with Josef Stetter
In this episode, Seth and Pete welcome Josef Stetter, also known as "The Résumé Whisperer," to share his insights on creating a compelling post-divorce résumé that will help you land the job you desire.
Seth and Pete discuss with Josef the challenges faced by individuals re-entering the workforce after a divorce. They explore strategies for highlighting transferable skills, quantifying accomplishments, and showcasing the unique value you bring to the table. Josef emphasizes the importance of tailoring your résumé to the specific job and company you're targeting, rather than relying on generic approaches.
Questions we answer in this episode:
How can I make my résumé stand out after being out of the workforce for an extended period?
What transferable skills should I highlight on my post-divorce résumé?
How do I get past the AI filters and ensure my résumé reaches human eyes?
Key Takeaways:
Quantify your accomplishments and contributions to demonstrate your value
Tailor your résumé to the specific job and company you're targeting
Be proactive in your job search by making personal connections and following up
Josef also shares practical tips for acing the job interview, including coming prepared, projecting confidence, and focusing on quantifiable achievements rather than just duties and responsibilities. Seth and Pete engage in a lively discussion with Josef, providing examples and actionable advice for listeners navigating the post-divorce job search.
This episode is packed with valuable insights and strategies for creating a standout post-divorce résumé and acing the job interview. Whether you've been out of the workforce for a while or are looking to switch careers, Josef's expert guidance will help you showcase your unique strengths and land the job you deserve.
Plus, we tackle a listener question about bringing AI into your divorce.
Links & Notes
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How To Split A Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships, from TruStory FM. Today, we're putting your toaster back to work.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show, everybody. I'm Seth Nelson. As always, I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. Today on the show, and Pete, I'm excited about this, we have an international bestselling author of 11 books, we have an award-winning speaker, we have a Guinness World Record participant, and we have an expert in recruitment and placement who has helped over 11,000 people find a job they love in under three months with a 90% success rate.
Now, people on the live stream are like, "What are you talking about?" Those are four different people. But wait, it's not. We knew what you were thinking. Don't worry. They are not four people. There's one, and it's the one and only Josef Stetter, the resume whisperer, who's here to help you craft your post-divorce resume. Josef, welcome to the Toaster.
Josef Stetter:
Thank you very much for having me. It's an honor and a pleasure.
Pete Wright:
I think, after an intro like that, there's only one direction for this show to take, Seth. It's the Guinness, right? It's the Guinness World ... Of course, it is.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, of course.
Pete Wright:
What are you doing?
Seth Nelson:
And here's the thing about this that you don't know about me, Pete. Whenever we discuss the Guinness World Record, if someone says, "Hey, did you hear about the Guinness World record holder?" Or, "There was a participant," or this or that, I go to the bar and have a Guinness that night.
Pete Wright:
Okay. What were you doing for your Guinness participation?
Josef Stetter:
It was the most authors signing the exact same book at the exact same time. I think the record was 155 authors in a room.
Pete Wright:
Wait, wait, wait. One book?
Josef Stetter:
One book. Basically, we each got a copy of the same exact book. It was a book of all 155. We basically created a bio and a short insights for somebody, and then, the publisher printed 155 copies, and the Guinness measure was to measure that we all signed it in the same, let's say, ten second timeframe at the same time kind of thing.
Pete Wright:
That is the most bizarre record I've ever heard.
Josef Stetter:
It's a record nonetheless.
Pete Wright:
It's a record. You're in on it.
Seth Nelson:
Wow. I got to ask this right off the bat, Josef. On your resume, do you put that at the bottom as the hook to get someone to talk to you about during an interview?
Josef Stetter:
No, because again, as a resume expert and a corporate culturist, I deal with corporations. The fact that I've written books, the fact that I've been featured in articles like Newswire and Disrupt Magazine and so forth gives me the credibility.
Once people understand how much in-depth insights I can give them, whether it's a job seeker who is going, "I've sent out hundreds or thousands of resumes. No one's answering me," and my response is, "Your resume sucks and you don't know how to interview." Or it's the companies I work for. I've worked with companies like Deloitte & Touche, Apotex Pharmaceuticals, Tata Consulting Services, where they need to hire, let's say, IT professionals, they need to hire accountants, they need to hire engineers. And the problem is that they might be getting hundreds or thousands of resumes, but they're not meeting certain criteria.
What I do is I delve in and go, "What's missing?" If I use software development, there's a very big difference between someone who's programming for a startup, where you have to figure everything out by yourself and document everything, versus working for a bank, where you're building a small piece of a big machine and everything's already documented and structured. You might have people that are applying from a bank to a startup, but they're not getting interviews because they're not highlighting that they're great or they're not highlighting that they've done more- Please.
Seth Nelson:
I do have a question on that. Has Pete sent you his resume to review? Is he looking for a different show to podcast with?
Pete Wright:
Stop it. You don't have to answer that, Josef. You are not under oath.
Seth Nelson:
He's not even in America. They don't have the fifth all around the world.
Josef Stetter:
No, I'm Canadian, but yes, I've done a lot of the new ...
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, it's the fourth and a half in the Canadian up there.
Josef Stetter:
With our government, Lord knows what it is.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, right?
Pete Wright:
Well, this gets us to, obviously, the point of this show. We're talking to people who are post-divorce, and I think you said it. I'm curious, when you're working with folks who maybe haven't been in the workforce for a long time, maybe weren't the breadwinner of their relationship in their pre-divorce life, and they're dealing with that sort of anxiety that comes with, "Oh, my God, now, I have to change some things," how do you begin crafting your package in a way that looks appealing to somebody who might be hiring you?
Josef Stetter:
I think the biggest mistake that most jobs speakers have, and especially nowadays where there is almost instant millionaire online kind of mentality, a lot of people try to be entrepreneurs, so there's a gap where, and then all of a sudden, now with AI, they're in a position where they've lost a lot of business or they need to reinvent themselves and maybe go back into the job market.
First thing I'd say is, stop giving generic cookie-cutter resumes. In nearly 20 years of recruiting, I've met very few people that say, "Listen, I'm lazy. I'll show up late. None of my work will be any good and I really hate people. Please hire me."
Seth Nelson:
That's who I look for. That's why Pete and I are together.
Josef Stetter:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
I was looking for that. That was his resume and here we are.
Josef Stetter:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
It was a meet-cute.
Josef Stetter:
And the only time that works is if you're related to somebody in the company or having an affair with them.
Seth Nelson:
So you're saying there's a chance. And hopefully, that's not the same person.
Josef Stetter:
Right. There's a level where, even if you've been a mom, you want quantify the contributions you've made. You've helped three kids get straight A's in school. You've run, let's say, activities, helped or volunteered with sport or extracurriculars, or even within the school environment where you were part of the parent board and you created initiatives, you created programs, you created ideas.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, my God, this is music to my ears, Josef, because I work with clients and they say, "I've been out of the job force for 20 years or 15 years. How am I going to get back in?" And I say to them, "Here's your skill set that I know, as your lawyer, from talking to you. You've volunteered at this. You've had three kids. You've gotten them to and from. You are a logistic genius."
Josef Stetter:
That's the thing. It's not just saying, "My duty is my responsibility." I always love to give these two examples when I speak and explain some of what I do with the people. Let's say you need to hire a receptionist, since you're a lawyer, and someone comes to you and says, "I know how to answer the phone," I hope you look at them in shock and go, "Really? A receptionist that knows how to answer the phone? I did not know that." Because unless you live in an igloo, a cave, or practice the faith of Mennonite where you don't believe in technology, there. At least in North America, anybody can press the green button and go, "Hello. How can I help you?" My three and a half year old daughter knows how to do that, right?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. I did not hire her. She applied.
Josef Stetter:
See? But if someone comes to you and says, "I know how to answer 60 calls a day with 12 different lines," I can measure 60 calls a day with 12 different lines. I cannot measure, "I know how to answer the phone."
Now, if I use an example from my own career, I can say, "I'm an excellent salesperson. I know how to do B2B, B2C, account management, relationship building, lead generations. I've worked retail. I've done door-to-door sales. I've done car sales. I've worked in private education, I've worked in recruitment. I know how to do sales." Now, here's the thing. All these words that I've just said, they're important for the algorithms of job boards like Indeed and LinkedIn. However, they don't tell the story. They just give you generic.
Now, if I give you, and this is a real example, I worked for a private college that, before I came in, generated $520,000 for the year. In one month, I generated $860,000 in sales for them. Which one would convince you that I know how to do sales? The first or the second? If you're talking to people that have gone through divorce and now kind of go, "How do I market my logistics experience or my organizational skills?," it's about showing how much was on your plate and how much you handled it in a way that you never missed an appointment, you never missed this, because once you start communicating it like that, the listening changes because now, the transferable skills are obvious.
Pete Wright:
Well, everything you've described and what Seth was getting to too, the logistics experience, it's all great, but what about people who say, "Look, I get it. I have this logistics experience, but how do I make sure that that logistics experience is relevant to this job that might not be in the same field, that might be in a specific industry that I'm not connected to?"
Josef Stetter:
When I have people that want to switch careers completely, have never worked, have been self-employed, I first go, "Let's make a list of the things you enjoy. What are your passions? What are your hobbies? What are your interests? What are the things you less enjoy?" I don't enjoy being an accountant, so I hire a very good accountant. I go, "Here's my receipts. How much do you charge me? Organize it. Give me the executive summary because I don't want that."
Second thing is, let's say, a simple question like the SIGH principle, security, income, growth, or happiness, which one's most important to you? If you want security, you're looking for a 9:00 to 5:00 job, whether it's accounting, engineering, office administrator, things like that. If you're looking for income, you're usually marketing and sales focused. If you're looking for growth, it's an opportunity to show that you have the tenacity and the resourcefulness to prove that you can produce results in any industry. And happiness is, I want to know I enjoy my job.
So if you look, let's say, and I'll use the US as an example, teachers get paid nothing, relatively speaking. They're getting paid under $30,000 when they're starting, and it's a very demanding job, but knowing that you're making a difference makes a huge impact on, hopefully, the choice to be a teacher.
Now, in that, with divorce, there's always, first, a conversation, are you willing to invest in terms of education or a certification to get hired, or do you need to get hired right away? For example, the Projects Management Institute has a designation for project management. It costs $1,200 to $1,500 and it's an online course that can be completed within approximately a month depending on how resilient you are at studying.
Once you have that little designation, you're now recognized as a project manager pretty much in any industry, which means, whether it's logistics or whether it's time management or whether it's other skills that you've amassed as a parent, as whatever it is, it now applies to that. By definition, a project is something that has a beginning, middle, and end. If you've organized a birthday party, that's a project. And you have experience with it, especially if you've done bigger events. My sister is very good at theme-ing the birthday parties for her kids, and my nephew loves Harry Potter and she'll order stuff that's Harry Potter and she'll create stations that the kids can play that are all Harry Potter related. But again, you can highlight that scale. Part of what I do is bring that to light.
Seth Nelson:
That's going to be my next question is, I'm dealing, as we can all imagine, with people that are beaten down. They're just done with this process, and now, when they're at their lowest low or their, "Thank God, it's just over," and I'm telling them, "You got to get a job. You got to get a job. You got to get a job," they're like, "How do I tell my story? I don't want to tell my story. I know I have to, but ... " Because what you just described to me at that birthday party is amazing because I'm thinking, when you're doing party planning and you're doing an office party, you could be setting up different stuff or doing all this different amazing things, but it's so hard because they're so tired.
Josef Stetter:
One of the things that I do, and this is a starting point, it's like, okay, let's look at your career or your life. What would you say are your five biggest accomplishments? Now, they don't have to be work related. If one of your accomplishments is raising kids, if you're going to describe raising kids, what's the one thing that you're going to say about your kids? "My kids got accepted into Ivy League or got accepted into these colleges because I tutored them. I helped them."
No one can question your knowledge because your kids got accepted. And I think this is where the transition is that most people, and we live in a society where our education system is not designed to teach us to go, "What's my highlight reel?" It's the same thing for yourself. As a lawyer, even if you're dealing with divorce, whether it's you got a huge settlement or you can handle, let's say, 100 clients a month, there's quantifiables in your professions. There's quantifiables that come in even for this podcast. You had 10 episodes, you've had 100 episodes, you've had 1,000 episodes. There's quantifiables.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, but through all that, there's only been three good ones, so let's not judge quality here. We just went with quantity.
Pete Wright:
For today, Seth, for today.
Seth Nelson:
For ... for ...
Josef Stetter:
Right. But this is the thing. Most people don't think and go, "What are the things that, if I look back and go, this is me." For example, as an interviewer, I love asking people this question, and this will tie into a lot of divorce, if I were to meet one of your closest friends and ask them to describe you in three or four words as if they're setting you up for a date, how would they describe you?
Now, the interesting thing about this question is, I shut up when I ask that question. I've had people rationalize which friend will set them up on a date. "Mary thinks I'm crazy, so not Mary. Jane will say," so I'm like, duly noted, crazy kind of thing because you just told me that.
Pete Wright:
Right. Yeah, your words.
Josef Stetter:
But what's interesting is that people don't often inter-reflect what they bring to the table, and they have a hard time because they don't know ... If they've gone through a divorce, they don't know what qualities make them unique, right?
Pete Wright:
Or maybe they did and have easily forgotten because it just gets stamped out.
Josef Stetter:
Right. And I'm going to use, again, because it's such a broad thing, humor. There's brilliant comedians out there. There's Jeff Foxworthy, that's more the redneck comedy. There's Kevin Hart, there's Gabriel Iglesias, aka Fluffy. They're all brilliant in their own world, but that doesn't mean that I like them because they're not necessarily my comedy style. There's a way of gauging, because again, if I ask that question on a job seeker and they're like, "I'm outgoing, I'm energetic and I'm bubbly," clearly not.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Josef Stetter:
Right. But what this question does is it forces, let's say, someone who's divorced, to go, "Wow, if I started dating right now, what would I want, let's say, people to know about me?"
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, boy, I'm not going to ask that question because they're like, "I'm done. I'm done dating." But I get the point. I get the point.
Pete Wright:
It's perspective setter.
Seth Nelson:
Right. The point is, where is your perspective? Where are your strengths? What can you bring to the table? And then, take that skill set or sets and explain it in a way that is going to ... And I think this is the key that you said and I really don't want to miss this point, to get the interviewer, to get the person who you're talking to listening. They hear it in a different way when you quantify it, when you say, "This is how I can do this."
And I have a really good example, Josef, and I want to get your input on it. We were actually hiring for a receptionist. And when I get a resume, the first thing I do is I look at the right side of the resume where people typically put how long they've worked at their previous positions that they put there, and if they're moving around every year or two, I get really nervous. I probably don't go further.
On the right side, this guy had been at the same employer for 15 years, and I looked to the left to read where it was and it was at Bush Gardens, which is an amusement park and they have animals and stuff. The last thing he did was work with the elephants. And I thought, okay, this guy's been working at this job for 15 years. This is interesting, but does he have any transferable skills? That's where my mind went.
And he had a cover letter. And in the cover letter, it said, "People's first impression is made up of you in the first seven seconds, and I imagine the receptionist position is really important when someone's calling to talk to a divorce attorney and how the receptionist presents that firm." And I was like, "Oh, my God. This guy might be the elephant whisperer, but I have to talk to him."
Josef Stetter:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
First off, no one's sending cover letters anymore. He was one of the only ones that did that. And second, he got me. And I will tell you, Ken has been working for us for a long time now and he's gotten two promotions. He's phenomenal. He's smart. And I tell this story whenever we're interviewing a new receptionist because every receptionist we've had has gotten promoted in the last three years.
Josef Stetter:
Look, and that's amazing, and here's the thing. Sadly, 98% of companies these days don't read the cover letter because the cover letter is semantics where most people write, "I'm really hard working, dedicated, committed, a player with excellent communication skills. I saw this job posting," and there's very little originality or creativity, right?
Seth Nelson:
Right. Where Ken's was original.
Josef Stetter:
I craft original cover letters that gets people's attention very quickly, first of all. Second of all, there's a mentality here where, and unfortunately, this is also for divorce, where stay-at-home moms or dads or whoever do so much for the house that we often dismiss the amount of things and we don't give credit where credit is due that, let's say, cooking three different meals takes time.
Pete Wright:
You said something really important just a bit ago, which was, nobody's reading cover letters because, by extension, we've got AIs looking at your resumes and picking the people who get interviewed. How can you guide these people, specifically these people who are trying to get back into the workplace to get past the Robo resumes, the filters. How do we do it?
Josef Stetter:
It's easier than you think. Easier than you think? And I'm going to share an example and I'm going to share, then, strategies for this.
I had a friend that graduated in mechanical engineering, and when he graduated, entry level jobs required five years of experience, which he didn't have because he just graduated. After sending out 100 resumes and not getting a response, he printed about 25 resumes, chose 25 companies that he wanted to go for, showed up at the first one at 9:00 a.m., said, "I'd like to speak to the director." They looked at him and said, "Do you have an appointment?" He said, "No." They said, "He has meetings all day." He said, "Okay, I'll wait," and he sat there until 2:00 in the afternoon.
At 2:00 in the afternoon, the director finally came and said, "I understand you've been waiting for me all day. How can I help you?" My friend said, "I know you're not hiring anybody, but I wanted to come and personally introduce myself. I just graduated as a mechanical engineer. Here's the projects I worked on, and I think I'd be a great part for your team."
They ended up having a five to 10-minute conversation and he was offered the job on the spot. If you've ever read Think And Go Rich, do that little bit extra. If you apply for a job on Indeed, one job posting on Indeed will get you between 350 and 5,000 resumes. Most companies look at the first 100. If you're 101, how do you change the algorithm?
The first thing you can do is, even though most job postings say, "Don't call us, we'll call you," call them and say, "You know what? My battery just died just as I to press send. Can you confirm that you received my application?" Or, "My internet's been wonky all day and it disconnected when I pressed submit. Can you check that you received it?" Or, "I never got a confirmation of my application. Can you please check?"
The moment that HR checks if your resume or application went through, guess what? You're first on the list. Now, you have two minutes to give your elevator pitch where you can go, "Here's two things or one thing that you need to know about me that would make me great for this position." Using Seth's example of, you know what? That first seven seconds, I'll make an impression that everybody remembers, it will plant that seed for him.
And then, the third thing that you need to do is go, "When are you starting to interview for this role?" If Seth says, "I'm interviewing in a week," say, "If I don't hear back from you in a week, Seth, can I call you back to get some feedback on my resume, on what I can improve or change so that I have better chances the next time?" That's the first thing that you need to do. Second thing is, be proactive in terms of physically go to the companies and stay there and try to speak to somebody.
Seth Nelson:
This all falls under, you got to get out from your computer, you got to call, you got to show up. It's the human contact as much as you can.
Josef Stetter:
Right. AI, again, depending on which platform, sometimes, it measures the formatting of the resume, sometimes, it measures ... Now, we've been taught, for the past 40, 50 years that we need to fill our resume with action words, "manage, direct, liaise, coordinate," but the algorithm of the job boards doesn't measure that. It measures the technical skills associated with the job that you're doing.
Pete Wright:
It's just doing a keyword filtering for exactly what they're looking for.
Josef Stetter:
Right. If you're doing accountant, you need, "accountant, accounting, financial statements, general ledger, reconciliation," because those are the words that are being scored on the algorithms, not, "manage, direct, liaise," because those are more to sell your story.
Pete Wright:
Got you.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
Josef Stetter:
A lot of people going through divorce will go, "Well, this is so small and significant. It doesn't matter." But that could be the most important thing to the company that's interviewing you because, Seth, in your example, the fact that this guy who worked with elephants and this said, "The first seven seconds is the impression that you want to leave-"
Seth Nelson:
He hooked me.
Josef Stetter:
Right. But there's a level where in that you can create the, "Here's what you need to know that's different. Here's why me."
Seth Nelson:
Let's take past the resume, because that's step one. Let's talk about the interview. Now, you're nervous. You haven't been on an interview. You've gone through all this stuff. So common mistakes, common things people should be focused on in the interview.
Josef Stetter:
I'm going to give you a few of my simple rules. I have seven rules to wow any interviewer and ace the interview.
Number one, come in with confidence that you already have the job. If you've ever worked anywhere and you've been promoted, they don't come to you and say, "Pete, tell me about yourself." They say, "Pete, you're doing a great job. We'd like to give you a little bit more responsibility, a little bit more money. Are you interested?" Right? So coming in with that attitude.
Second, smile. 95% of people forget to smile during an interview because they're nervous.
Seth Nelson:
Wow.
Josef Stetter:
Because they're terrified, yeah. Smiling will help release endorphins that creates more of a conversation rather than question, answer, question, answer. Even though the interview still needs to follow a certain format, just like this podcast, we're having a conversation versus, okay, answer this question, answer this question, kind of thing.
Now, this is probably the biggest takeaway that is. Most people focus on their duties and responsibilities. In the examples I gave earlier, "I know how to answer the phone." I don't care. And when I say "I," I mean most employers. I need you to quantify.
This is where your interview should answer one of four things: so what? Who cares? What's in it for them? Or, what's the end result that you propose? "I know how to type." Who cares? "I know how to type 100 words a minute and I can create the documents for you faster and better with zero errors." Now, I'm speaking Seth's language because Seth, as a lawyer, he can't have errors in his document. And if someone can type 100 words a minute, Seth is going, "Okay, this document's going to get done pretty quickly for me."
Again, in the interview, if you have confidence, you should have energy.
Seth Nelson:
One of my pet peeves showing up, Josef, is when people show up, they don't have anything to write with, they don't bring a pad of paper. And literally, I hand them a pad of paper and a pen and I said, "I'm just letting you know it's one of my pet peeves." And I'll say, "Look, I get that some people just take things in orally and some people take notes," and everybody in this office knows you don't come into my office without a pad of paper. Now, I'm just old school, maybe, but some people have iPads, some people have reMarkables, all sorts of electronic pads of paper, but there's just some basics like that that we have to remind people to do as well.
Josef Stetter:
Again, I think we've become so far to the left and dependent on technology that we've forgotten the human factor. Even on the corporate side, executives will look at it and especially go, "We need to make this number better." They forget the human factor. They forget that humans need the water cooler conversations where, mentally, they get a break from what they're doing and talk about TV or music so that they can go back and focus.
Even if you look at big companies like Amazon and the expectation of, you need to be this efficient, yes, there's robots that do some of the work, but if all you're doing is pushing the number, pushing the number, pushing the number ... One of my favorite TV shows is Undercover Boss. I always love, at the end of the show, when the executive goes, "Oh, my God, I should speak to the people that work here."
Pete Wright:
"I just learned something amazing."
Josef Stetter:
Right. And we've become so removed from that. And now, like you said, AI can write, ChatGPT can write your resume and it can be a decent resume, but ChatGPT is programmed to write what is standard out there. But if you're writing what is standard, you're not going to stand out.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, humans hire humans, right? Ultimately, somebody's going to sign off on you. They have to see you and talk to you.
Josef Stetter:
Right. And as a divorce lawyer, I have never met anyone that read a profile and goes, "Oh, my God, I'm marrying this person without meeting them, without talking to them, without spending any time with them."
Seth Nelson:
Oh, you'd be surprised, Josef.
Josef Stetter:
It's called 90 Day fiance. That's a whole other conversation, but I'm just saying ...
Pete Wright:
I've got another question. I've got a question about, we'll call it from a marketing perspective, understanding your demographic. Is there any logic to, coming out of a divorce, needing to get back in the workforce, to shooting for different size companies, maybe offering your services to smaller companies to, let's say, small to medium-sized law firms or somewhere where you can directly relate to someone where a job is posted where you have a direct contact rather than a, fill out this form and wait? Is there logic to that, to making those connections?
Josef Stetter:
I think it depends on what you're interested in doing. The advantage of smaller companies, it's usually more family oriented. There's more of a, we support each other. The bigger the company, the more you become a number in it and the more you get lost in the shuffle, so the process of getting promoted might get harder.
But at the end of the day, you have to understand that larger companies have more systems in place, so you might get passed because you don't meet X and Y, like, you haven't worked for the past five years in an organization. Whereas smaller companies, just like Seth mentioned, will look at the details, a little bit more time and energy.
Today, there's an expectation that people will have breaks and that there'll be turnovers. In universities and colleges, students are taught in business to work for a company for three to five years, leave on good terms, go see if the grass is greener on the other side, and then, if it's not, a year later, come back. When you come back, you're more likely to get promoted and get the raise that you've been seeking because the company you left will appreciate just how much work you did.
I can tell you right now, from my own experience of both the clients that I coach as well as on the recruiting side, that, as much as a lot of organizations are saying, "Ooh, let's hire new graduates because they're cheaper, because they just got educated and they're cheaper," you cannot substitute the value of experience.
This is where you're seeing a lot of, also, larger companies starting to understand, it's not just about who's cheapest anymore or who has the most education anymore or who has the most experience anymore. Because let's say, if I use the world of marketing, yes, there's a gazillion AI tools right now that can do your marketing for you, but to have a human that knows how to connect with people and tell a story is so much more valuable because, you. Don't. Sound. Like. This. In. Your. Video.
Seth Nelson:
And Josef, exactly what we do, we had a little advertising that we did, and then, something went wrong, I won't bore you with the story, but they called me and said, "Oh, we can do this, this, and this," and it was pretty abrupt. It was an email, actually. And I called them up and I said, "We can make this very transactional. We had a contract. You didn't fulfill it. This is what I can do. This is what you can do. Or, we can sit down and break bread together and talk about having a long-term relationship." They were floored. They were like, "Oh, my God. When can you come out? Let's do that." And then, the owner of the company met us for it, which I wasn't ... I was like, "Whoever the decision maker is, get them at the table." And they were so thankful. But it was those personal touches. And I think that's really the key and the takeaway, Pete, is that you've got to have the ability to, like Josef says, pick up the phone, get there.
Josef Stetter:
And someone who's divorced that's been a stay-at-home or whatever, let's break bread, let me make you some ... You know how rare that is? "Hey, let me bake you something and bring it." It sounds funny, but it'll be remembered, it'll be standing out.
Seth Nelson:
But I think part of that bringing something is, the way I looked at that is, "Hey, that's an impact on the culture." How am I going to positively impact the culture?
Josef Stetter:
And I think that's the connection and where people need to understand, listen, I can make a janitor sound like a brain surgeon. It's just a matter of choosing the right sequence of words, and then, quantifying the results to show, here's value.
Understand that we ... Eminem said it best, "I am who you say I am." You exist in listening. If I tell you a joke and you're not laughing at my joke, I'm not funny. If I think I'm smart and you don't listen to me as smart, there's a disconnect.
Anyone that's gone through divorce, the first thing is, make a list of what you're really good at, whether that's baking, cooking, cleaning, organizing, and then, go, "Okay, organizing. How would that apply in a job environment? Where do I need to be organized? How can I demonstrate that my organizational skills will make sure that, let's say, if I'm being hired as an administrative assistant, no task will be missed, that everything will be recorded, everything will be functional." And it's just writing statements that says, "Here's why I'm brilliant at this," or, "Here's how I do this in a different way than most."
Pete Wright:
"Here's why I'm relevant."
Josef Stetter:
Right. And it's not just, "I know all these tools." My accounting clients tell me that Millennials today have learned how to memorize a textbook, but the ones that get promoted to become partners are the ones that, A, know how to communicate, and B, think outside the box.
Pete Wright:
Outstanding. Josef, we got to wrap it up. This has been a really wonderful last point to bring us home. What an interesting conversation. And as somebody who's been out of the job market for a long time, I learned a lot. I really appreciate you coming in and helping our folks. Where would you like to send people to learn more about the work that you do?
Josef Stetter:
Josef Stetter is my name on pretty much all social media platforms, nice and easy. I'm most active on LinkedIn, but I am on Facebook, I am on Instagram, on Tik-Tok, and so forth. And again, there's a level where the fastest I've helped people land their dream job is two days. And it's about reprogramming, first of all, their mind, in terms of highlighting how great they are and what they have to offer, and then, doing that little bit extra that no one else is doing to get noticed, to get hired. And when you do, anything is possible.
Pete Wright:
Perfect. Josef Stetter, thank you so much for hanging out with us. We sure appreciate you being here and shouting out to our audience and helping them get back to work.
And now, we're turning to a listener question.
Listener question. Seth, a catalytic question, and this is possibly my favorite. I mean, how can you pick your favorite child? But this is my favorite question.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. Well, I don't get to see them ahead of time, so now, I'm really excited.
Pete Wright:
This question comes from Matt Gehring who says, oh, Seth ...
Seth Nelson:
My God, you're already laughing?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Come on.
Pete Wright:
"I heard," says Matt, "I heard ChatGPT passed the bar exam." Why do we even need you anymore? "I heard ChatGPT passed the bar exam. Do you use any AI in your firm? Do you think there's a way for AI tools to support me as someone getting divorced in my own case? How so? Thanks."
Seth Nelson:
Okay. Well, I want to congratulate ChatGPT on passing the exam. First off.
Pete Wright:
You're very kind to offer the robots such a kind word.
Seth Nelson:
Yes. Do we use any AI in the firm, was, I think, the first question? No, we do not.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
I will explain why in a minute, but I think the next one, is there a way for me to use AI tools if he's representing himself? There might be. I don't suggest it. There was a lawyer, I forget in what jurisdiction, who was sanctioned by the bar for using AI, an AI quoted to a case that did not exist.
Pete Wright:
There have been two now.
Seth Nelson:
Have there been two?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. No, it's not pretty.
Seth Nelson:
You're ahead of me.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
So no, I would not use AI. When AI was first coming into vogue, my son said, "Oh, we're not allowed to use ChatGPT," and he was in high school. And I said, "What is that?" I'm the old guy. If there's something new. Let me know. And we tested it and I asked it like, "Oh, how does alimony work in Florida?," and it came up with a very generic answer. That was not something that I felt was helpful because you had no way to source where the information came from, so if it was wrong, how did you know?
It did help where it cited to a statute, but then, you got to go find the statute. I think, with a little digging, you could find where the law is as far as the statutes. Getting the case law is much different. There's no way AI is going to help you for the things that aren't on the internet. How do you schedule a hearing? What number do you call? Who do you email? How do you work your case through the process? There's all this other stuff that we do in a divorce firm or any law firm that deals with litigation or transactional work that it is impossible, in my mind, for AI to know, because it's just not there. And when it is, and then, you get a new judge assigned to your case, maybe things change.
Pete Wright:
I love it so much when we have on the record you saying things like, "There is no way that this thing is going to happen," when speaking about AI. I'm not saying you're wrong today, but I look forward to raising a glass to this episode in a year.
Seth Nelson:
Well, actually, now that I'm thinking about this, I have to correct my answer. We do use AI in the firm in one spot.
Pete Wright:
Yes, we do.
Seth Nelson:
I forgot about that because I was thinking legal. Go ahead, Pete. You tell it.
Pete Wright:
Well, we do have one tool, and it's a tool on our website from our partners at Twinbox, and when Seth said, "There's no way to source where the information is coming from," this is a tool that allows you to essentially interview our podcast. If you visit Howtosplittatoaster.com, there's a little box that says, "Ask Seth and Pete," right at the bottom. When you type into that box, you ask your question, you're not interviewing all of the law books of the state of Florida. You're interviewing the stuff that Seth and I have said in the interviews that we've hosted on the show, so we know exactly where those answers are coming from, and they can tell you if we've talked about a certain subject or not and it ends up being a pretty incredible tool, you have to admit.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, I thought it was amazing because it was really our words and I knew they were right, or you corrected me when I was wrong, I should say, but all that being said, here's the other thing that I know AI cannot do. It cannot represent you in court. It can't take the phone call when your kid isn't getting off the bus.
There's a human element in responsiveness to reaching out to the other lawyer and trying to solve problems. Look, if you think AI can write a better brief than us, that's fine, but it can't go argue it in court. If you think it can write a better motion, that's fine, but it can't necessarily file it and get on the judge's calendar, and then, go argue it in court. Also, what I don't know about AI, and Pete, you know more than I do, is how far back is it going? Is it, okay, it's only analyzing stuff that's been posted six months previous, or is it up to the minute? Because look, as we all know on this show, Florida law changed on July 1st, 2023. How long does it take AI to catch up?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, and when we say AI, we're talking about, essentially, a bouquet of different models from all the big tech firms right now, so they all have different sort of dates of completion and you have to know, understand that in order to really use the tool. I would say, and your feedback welcome, if somebody uses AI to create, essentially, a divorce plan that says, "Hey, work me through the process, AI. What are the things that I want to make sure I don't forget?," and essentially gives you a checklist of things to walk in and talk to your attorney about, you'd welcome something like that, to give you something to respond to.
Seth Nelson:
A hundred percent. The first question I always ask everybody on every potential client is, "What is your goal for this conversation?" If they said, "For you to answer these questions," I'd be thrilled because I know that I'm serving what they want. But my question is, when it says, "Give me the plan," and they turn out a plan, is that their plan or is it just AI said, "This is a generic plan?," and then, it's up to me to say, "Okay, where'd you get these questions?" "Oh, I did AI." "Okay, well, how much are really important to you? Here's a different way to approach it." Right?
Pete Wright:
Exactly, yeah. I think that's a really great way to approach the tools is to say, "Look, this is not going to be the end-all, be-all response, but all of these responses are a work in progress. Do not take them to court without vetting everything by your attorney, because that can really mess things up for you. Fair?
Seth Nelson:
All right. Well, yeah, great question. I was wondering why you were cracking up. Now, I know.
Pete Wright:
Oh, I love it so much. I love it so much. And now, we have you saying, "This will never happen," so many times on this episode, I think I'll create a rap video and it's just you over and over.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, it's okay. I'm going to slip Andy a Benjamin and have him cut all that stuff out. We're good.
Pete Wright:
Thank you so much, Seth. And thank you so much, Matt, for sending in that question. We still have these questions stacked up and we're very excited to continue to chip away at him over the course of this season.
Want to get your question in there? Just head over to Howtosplittotoaster.com. There's a Submit A Question button, and if you hit that button, it'll give you a form where you can fill it out. You can give us your name and your email address and your question. That's all great.
And you could also use the box, use the Ask Seth And Pete box to ask a question there. All transparency, we can see the questions that you're asking on our end and we would love to get some questions that way too, so thank you.
On behalf of Josef Stetter and Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney, I'm Pete Wright, and we'll see you right here next week on How To Split A Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
How To Split A Toaster is part of the TruStory FM Podcast Network, produced by Andy Nelson. Music by T. Bless & The Professionals and DB Studios. Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida.
While we may be discussing family law topics, How To Split A Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction.
Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
