Divorce Through the Kids’ Eyes: A Conversation with Documentary Filmmaker Ellen Bruno About ‘Split’
But What Do the Kids Think?
According to our guest today, divorce is a monster under kids beds. In her ongoing film project, Ellen Bruno is putting kids’ voices first, hearing how a group of young people view divorce over the long arch of their young lives. The 2013 film Split: The Early Years introduces us to 12 kids adapting to divorce in their families. This year, we catch up with those same kids after a decade’s passed in Split Up: The Teen Years as they reflect on how their lives have been marked by divorce.
We have a wonderful conversation with Ellen about what she’s learned from these kids over the last decade, and interesting perspectives gained from them. We talk about the value of learning to be vulnerable and keep your communication open with your ex in order to better provide a positive environment for your kids. We chat about what children of divorce have to learn in order to take care of themselves. We also wonder what it would take to have more judges and jurisdictions make these films required viewing.
Plus we have a listener question asking about the meme-ification within the divorce industry and how that may affect those going through it.
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. Today, we're going to talk to your toaster as a 10-year-old.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everybody. I'm Seth Nelson. As always, I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. According to our guest today, divorce is a monster under the kids' bed. In her ongoing film project, Ellen Bruno is putting kids' voices first. Hearing how a group of young people view divorce over the long arch of their young lives. The 2013 film, Split, introduces us to 12 kids adapting to divorce in their families. This year, we catch up with those same kids 10 years later in Split UP: The TEEN Years as they reflect on how their lives have been marked by divorce. Ellen Bruno, welcome to the Toaster.
Pete Wright:
Ellen, my goodness. First of all, hi. But also, I'm watching the Split and Split UP and my heart is just bleeding for these kids. But before I start, just gushing over the just straight-up fantastic filmmaking. Can you set the stage of what you are working to accomplish with the SPLIT Outreach Project?
Ellen Bruno:
Sure. Yeah. And thanks for having me. Yeah. Well, I was a kid of divorce in the '60s and then 30 years later, I was a parent separating from my kid's dad. And I realized that there was a lot that had not changed in those 30 years. We were pretty isolated as kids. I grew up in a small town in Rhode Island, sort of an Italian Catholic community, and nobody was divorced. And at that point everybody thought, "Don't mention it to the kids. Don't talk about it. It's going to upset them." Well, as if we didn't notice.
And so, with our child imaginations, especially me, I was inventing all kinds of bizarre and tragic explanations for the heaviness that was happening in our household. And I actually thought I was dying. And in my 10-year-old mind, my parents would go into their room and have a quiet private powwow and come out and clearly, they were both upset and then they were being extra nice to me, and I ate more ice cream in that month than I had probably my entire life. And I thought, something's fishy here.
And then 30 years later I realized, okay, things have changed. Everybody's doing it. Divorce is so commonplace in our culture. And so, it's been normalized to the point that I thought, "Okay. Well then, it must be that way to some degree for the kids." And I started paying attention to the kids in the backseat of my car as I was going back and forth to soccer [inaudible 00:03:06].
Seth Nelson:
Dripping with ice cream.
Ellen Bruno:
Yeah, exactly.
Seth Nelson:
You guys go do the ice cream drive-thru, they're like, "Nice to see you again. Second scoop of other day?"
Ellen Bruno:
Exactly. Yeah. And my kids and the kids in the back of the car, I realized they were only talking to each other if their parents were also divorced. That seemed to be, if you were part of the club, you could talk about it. Otherwise, it was kind of embarrassing and kind of yucky and these other kids wouldn't understand.
And I thought, there's got to be a way to get these kids talking. There's got to be a way to at least create something that I'd want my kids to watch that didn't feel kind of creepy or completely controlled and moderated by experts or parents. Give the floor to the kids and see what they come out with. And so, that was sort of the impetus for the film, the first film.
Pete Wright:
And so, the first film, that was 2013?
Ellen Bruno:
Mm-hmm.
Pete Wright:
Okay. And you interviewed 12 kids.
Ellen Bruno:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
And those faces are just burned into my brain. They're adorable, and I have to tell you, stunned at their wisdom. What did you find listening to them talk about this experience that you understood both as a kid, but years ago and as a survivor of divorce?
Ellen Bruno:
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's funny you should use the word "survivor" because my entire career has been working in war zones in a refugee camp. And all of my previous work has been about people surviving genocide or being tortured in prison as political prisoners. And so, my entire career has really been both direct service with survivors, but also then eventually making films.
And so, everybody at the beginning said, "Well, why this is so different than your work?" This is the first film I've actually made in the states. And then, it became clear actually, these kids are survivors. What are survivors? What survivors do is they try to make sense of their circumstances. Something's getting served up to them, be it a war, some economic hardship, some disease, divorce. And I don't mean to equate all of those. But surviving is really about making sense of what's being served up to you that you probably have no control over.
And it's creating the narrative and therefore, the movement forward. And kids are very much survivors of this, even the best of circumstances, kids, their lives are rocked by divorce. And we need to recognize this, even though, like I said, it's become so normalized in our culture in a way it's been a little overnormalized for the kids. So, I have a feeling people are figuring, "Oh, Johnny's going to be okay." In part because they need to feel like Johnny's going to be okay.
Seth Nelson:
That's not what I hear in my office. It's Johnny's only going to be okay if he's with me.
Ellen Bruno:
Yeah. Well, there's that.
Seth Nelson:
Right. In hence, the conflict, which in and of itself is the problem. And then not communicating with the children at their level, and this is going to sound counterintuitive in not letting them get involved. And here's what I mean by get involved is when you tell children this is happening, they, much like your 10-year-old mind did, wanted to, "How does this impact me?" They do not care that mom and dad are not going to be sleeping in the same room. They do not care. What they care about is where they're going to be sleeping.
So, when you say stuff like, "Well, dad's going to get up a new place or mom's going to get a new place, or we're both going to get a new place and we're really going to need your help on picking out a great room for you." Now, you're talking to them at their level, whatever that might be. But when you just say nothing from what these kids I'm hearing, which I agree with Pete, they're fricking adorable and their wisdom was great, they think they're the problem. I caused it.
Pete Wright:
That was it. You had said something in another interview, Ellen, forgive me, and I feel like we've already dropped this line, but the divorce is the monster under their bed. That's the, oh my god. It's the unknown unspeakable.
Ellen Bruno:
Exactly.
Pete Wright:
And that's a huge awakening when I have to imagine as a parent going through divorce, watching these words come out of those faces that they know vastly more than you think they do, that they are aware and ready to talk about so much more than you think they are. That's a key lesson out of all of this work for me.
Ellen Bruno:
Totally. I mean, these kids are so tuned in and this idea that they don't know what's going on or that they can't intuit on some level what's going on with their parents. I mean, our kids are so dialed into us. And we've got to trust that they obviously, as one of the kids in the film says, an eight-year-old can't hear everything. You're not going to download to the eight-year-old about how mom had an affair. And that's why they're saying. But you do need to help them create the narrative.
Everybody's so concerned about how are we going to tell them about the divorce. And then they have the sense that once the divorce has happened, meaning two households are established, everything's then fine. Okay, now we can move forward. Well, in fact, that's kind of the beginning for most of these kids. Like you were saying, Seth, I mean it's like these kids, yeah, the divorce happens, but it's what happens from that point forward that's going to really dictate how comfortable these kids are in two homes. How comfortable they feel having good relationships with both parents and how comfortable they feel in their homes.
Even if it's a corner of a living room where they have a cot in one stuffy, if there's a sense of home, and the kids are sort of taken in by both parents. So, the sense of let's create a new place for you here. Let's go discover what the grocery store is down the street, kind of involve the kids in the exploration of a new place, of the creating of a new space.
Seth Nelson:
And that's all on their level. And when you do that, you can take it a step further and have what I call just check-ins. Every now and then, I'm just going to check in with you, and this is going to be the check-in. It might be we're in their car, it might be at dinner. It's not going to be around your friends, but "Hey, how you doing? Do you miss mom? Do you miss dad? Do you have any questions?" Just check in on your mental health. And sometimes you're going to be like, "Yeah, no, I'm good." Or you're going to get, "Well, I really miss dad." But you're giving them the opportunity to say it's okay to miss the other parent or to do X, Y and Z.
And Pete, we've talked about this before, and I'm very fortunate, my kid was very intuitive and he was very little and he was going to bed and he calls his mom, and then I chat with him after he talks to his mom. We read bedtime stories. I mean, he was like three and a half, four years old, and he was upset. And I said, "What's wrong, buddy?" He goes, "Well, I'm just sad." I'm like, "What are you sad about?" And he goes, "Well, I just miss mom when I'm with you." And this was terrifying to ask, "Well, how do you feel when you're at mom's?" Because he could be like, "I'm great."
Pete Wright:
I don't need to know kiddo. I don't need to hear that.
Seth Nelson:
But he goes, "When I'm with mom, I really miss you." And I just got lucky as a parent and said, "Well, you have a choice on whether you're happy or not and how you feel. That part of that is what you can control when you're dealing with this situation." I said, "So, you can miss mom when you're with me and be sad and you can miss me when you're with mom and be sad and then you'll be sad all the time."
I said, "Or you could be happy with mom when you're with mom and you can be happy when you're with me, with me. You're still allowed to miss the other parent, that's okay. But generally, you could be happy. So, you won't to be sad all the time or happy all the time." And he just goes, "I want to be happy all the time." I said, "Well, there you have it."
I called his mom that night and she was a little bit like, "Hello? Everything okay? I just thought you put him to bed." I said, "Look, everything's fine. He's sleeping. I just wanted to call you and tell about this conversation I had." And she said, "Oh my god, I am so glad you called." I said, "Why?" She goes, "Because he always tells me how he misses you and it breaks my heart. Because I want him to be happy with me but I also want him to be happy." So, she was dealing with the same thing. And I said, "I just let you know, I don't know if I said it was right, it seemed to have worked. Let's keep an eye on this."
But having the conversation at that basic level with a three-year-old is what you need to do.
Ellen Bruno:
Well, and the fact that you can have this conversation, Seth, with your kids' mom, is really part of the equation there. And it's true, of course, kids, they're going to miss their dog, they're going to miss the other parent, they're going to miss their pillow. I mean, kids just get used ... They like being comfortable in their spaces.
But one of the kids said to me once when I asked, "What's the most important thing in your mind to tell other parents that are going through divorce?" And she said, "It is so important for kids to know that there was once love or that they came from love." And the truth is, the vast majority of time, these kids do come from love. But oftentimes there's such animosity that the kids aren't even allowed to keep a photo of them with both parents.
My daughter who's 23 right now, her favorite photo is a picture of me and her dad holding her when she was about two. It's not a great photo. Nobody looks particularly good, but to her, that is her touchstone saying, "There was love. I came from love and to honor that" on a certain level and that's really hard for parents obviously when they're going through all of the chaos and hurt and anger and everything else in disappointment of separation.
But it's so critical to the kids because that's how they can help to maintain a sense of whole despite the fact that they're living in two households. It really is this sense of whole that they kind of cherish and this connection with both.
Pete Wright:
I feel like we dove into the story telling only half of it because the movie Split, the initial film is just a part of it. You come back to these same 12 kids 10 years later and you give a Split UP.
Seth Nelson:
This is my favorite part.
Pete Wright:
Right, right. This is fantastic. Okay. So, you're pulling kind of a Richard Linklater, Boyhood thing here, or Seven Up or it's a fantastic journey through time. You look at yourself in the mirror every day and you don't really notice much difference. But my goodness, when you come back and look at pictures from 10 years ago, you're a different person. These kids are different people. Tell us a little bit about what you learned coming back to these kids.
Ellen Bruno:
Well, I mean, much like the first time, these conversations were very organic conversations. I didn't go in with my agenda. And so, let's talk about this, this and this. And I just said, "Look, just talk about what's important to you." And these really strong themes emerged even when they were younger, six to 12 years old. Certain things that it just seemed to be, I'm not saying every kid experiences the same things, but for example, one of them, is this is my fault? That's hard for a lot of parents to understand how kids come up with that idea that this is somehow my fault.
But especially after the divorce when you realize, oh, my god. Well, their own parents are always arguing about time and about money and about the logistics of going back and forth, all of these very kid related things. How could a kid not think that they were the center of the sick problem?
Well, we went back 10 years later. And luckily, all of the kids were really eager to participate. And what became clear was that the well-being of these kids, their sense of stability, emotional stability and their sense of agency really seemed to be, in many ways, directly proportional to the amount of conflict between their parents.
And again, these themes emerged. One of them was how burdensome often it is for kids to take care of their parents on an emotional level if they have a parent or their parents are always getting upset or fighting with each other, they feel like they have to be super good or they need to be the peacemaker between parents and kind of mediate and get in there and try to smooth things over. Even just on one girl was saying, "My mother created this life that she can't manage on her own. She's got all these dogs and she's got all this stuff she needs to deal with, and so I have to be the other parent. And I really resent that."
And so, there's this way on so many levels that kids without parents really realizing it, take up the baton, so to speak, and in so many ways to take care of their parents and also get caught in this sort of framework of what's fair. And it's funny, I did that throughout my adult life with my parents. Oh, that's Christmas. I'm going to spend Christmas morning with my mom, but then I have to get over to dad's by noon at the latest because then he'll be sitting around waiting for me.
And this kind of back and forth, back and forth, how much time. I don't want my mom to think I love her more because my dad and I have to be careful about what I say in front of my dad. I can't really mention my mom because that makes him upset. And all of this managing.
Seth Nelson:
I mean, isn't that what Christmas is all about?
Ellen Bruno:
That wasn't my family.
Seth Nelson:
I mean, Ellen-
Ellen Bruno:
Are we having fun yet?
Seth Nelson:
Ellen, I'm a good Jewish boy, so I don't really know these things, but that's what I thought the story of Christmas is all about.
Ellen Bruno:
Oh, you're right. You're right. Yeah. Well said. Yeah, no kidding. Have we had enough dysfunction yet this Christmas, this holiday season?
Pete Wright:
You're saying all these things and all I can think about is did the parents of these kids watch the first movie? Did they learn nothing? What do you hear from the lessons learned by parents? I mean, you're shaking your head no, which makes me so nervous about the answer.
Ellen Bruno:
Well, I mean, the truth of it is, yeah, they all saw the first film and they all did the best they could or they tried to do the best they could. And the fact is, I guess on some level, we're all trying to do the best we can, but there's this thing that happens. I mean, our entire system, our entire legal system, our entire social system-
Seth Nelson:
Oh, here it comes. Let's bash the lawyers.
Ellen Bruno:
I'm not bashing the lawyers.
Seth Nelson:
Hold on. Hold on, Ellen. I'm buckling up here. Click, click.
Pete Wright:
There you go.
Seth Nelson:
Go ahead.
Ellen Bruno:
Let's just say we don't do divorce. Well, in our culture, we're doing an awful lot of it. But I mean, for god's sakes, when I was getting divorced, people couldn't wait to tell me what a jerk my kid's father was. Now, it feels good at first, because you're like, "Okay, wow, I guess I'm right."
Pete Wright:
Because the other D in divorce is dopamine. It just feels good sometimes.
Ellen Bruno:
Yeah, exactly. But then it becomes eating too much candy where you're like, "Oh my god, I'm going to puke now." And so, this is what we do. This is how we think in our culture. We can support people that are going through a divorce, trash the other parent, and yeah, okay. It feels good for a while. Yeah, well, I get it. But the fact is you're in a relationship with that person for the rest of your life. That's the truth of it. And just that you were talking about for your son. There's a door that says suffering, and there's a door that says joy and love, and we actually have the ability to choose for or what door we walk through.
Seth Nelson:
To pick the door. Right.
Ellen Bruno:
Yeah. It's so great you could say that to your son.
Seth Nelson:
Well, I was very fortunate. Absolutely, and I got lucky on that. And on that point, it truly comes back to being vulnerable because in that moment, I was vulnerable saying, "Well, how do you feel at mom's?" I'm putting myself out there and I'm going to take whatever comes my way. Also, being vulnerable as they get older to say during my time, which I hate that it's not my time, it's the time that you happen to be spending with me because it's his time.
Ellen Bruno:
Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
But when something good happened when he was with me on the weekends that he was scheduled and was spending time with me, the first thing I would say is, "Do you want to call mom and tell her?" That would be the first thing. And then he played chess. So, I would text her from the chess tournaments. First game he won. Going into the second game. And then I would get a text, "Any update?" I'm like, "No, he's been in there for an hour. I don't know what's going on."
And then what would get reinforced, and this is the other key, you open the communication with the parent, you tell the kid to call the parent, and then it gets reinforced and said, "Dad told me you won four out of your five games. Tell me about your favorite one." Now, the kid knows we're communicating, that it was positive. It was like get the reinforcement. Those little things, I think, have had a huge positive impact in my child's life. That is no skin off your back. It's easy.
Ellen Bruno:
Exactly. But yet, what you're saying is true is it doesn't mean that you have to be vulnerable. The truth is everybody's feeling hurt, everybody's angry, everybody feels ripped off or betrayed or whatever, disappointed the circumstances are. And who wants to be soaking in the toxicity of all of those feelings? And we're doing ourselves a favor if we can sort of step up and just let that stuff go, which means being vulnerable.
And it's so great. Somebody needs to make the first step. Somebody needs to extend the first olive branch. Understanding that this isn't just about the kids, this is about the adults and the parents too. It's much better. It's a much better life to live outside of the toxicity of anger and resentment. Yeah, okay, shit happens. But let's all move forward with [inaudible 00:22:22].
Seth Nelson:
And the other thing is, I hear what our listeners are saying, Pete, to their minds, "Yeah, but my ex is different. They'll never change." I assure you, I'm not disagreeing with you. Your ex might not reciprocate. Your ex might still be the toxic one. But you know and your kids will figure it out, hence, go forward 10 years, they're going to figure it out that they know that you're the one that made the effort.
Pete Wright:
Right. This actually leads to something that I'm mulling over hearing you to talk is when you think about, we talk a lot about self-care and we take care of ourselves in the divorce process, you have the benefit of seeing this range of kids and their growth process, whether their parent has chosen to pick the door of joy or the door of suffering. What are the kids, as you reflect on what the kids are doing to take care of themselves, how do they self-care in absence of parents who are resonating with their experience?
Ellen Bruno:
Well, I think what's interesting when they're older is that they begin to realize that oftentimes they don't take care of themselves. They haven't been taking care of themselves. So, that's kind of one of the sad parts of listening to these teenagers and young adults is they're saying, they're actually saying, I think two or three of them in the film said, "I'm growing up now. I'm heading to college, and I realize I have to learn how to put myself first." It's like it's about me.
One of the girls actually said, "It's like being in a plane and the oxygen mask falls. I have to learn how to take care of myself." And it's spent a very long time of not doing that, of putting other people first because she's been tending to her time with both parents and trying to be fair and taking care of her younger sister and making sure everything's okay.
Pete Wright:
Well, in some cases, there was the young man who said, "And I've had three divorces in my life since then. I've been just watching this happen around me for the last 10 years."
Ellen Bruno:
Right, right. Well, and that's exactly, it is watching because you can't underestimate. Kids, doesn't matter what we tell kids, they're being patterned by what they see at a very strong unconscious and semiconscious way by how we're behaving. And so, if they see the choices we make when we're really pissed off or we're really stressed out and we're really sad, that's how they're going to make the choices. I mean, I see myself as a parent, if I'm in a really pressured situation, I become my father. And it's not always the best of my father.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, and I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to hear that. I've never met your father. This is the first I've heard of your father, but just the way you say it, I'm sorry to hear that.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, sorry to hear that.
Ellen Bruno:
Well, my father was a judge and he was a real hardnosed kind of. He was a lovely guy.
Pete Wright:
So, now Seth has met your father.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Now, I understand when you say that he's got the gavel. It might hit the table, it might hit your head, I'm with you.
Ellen Bruno:
Just give me the facts. What are the facts?
Seth Nelson:
Oh, shit Ellen, that's exactly what my mom would say. And she was a very accomplished litigator. And she's like, "That's not the question I asked. Answer the question."
Ellen Bruno:
But it made you a good debater I'm sure, man.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. My fiancé loves that about me. Let me tell you. No. But back to this, which I think is really fascinating, is that this child who has been watching all these divorces happen over and over or taking care of yourself, and I have to be myself, and we had this on the podcast before where a parent said the child was going off to college and said, "It's the great consolidation." Because it was going to be the first time in their lives that all their shit was ... That they really wanted...
Pete Wright:
In one place.
Seth Nelson:
... was in one small dorm room. So, imagine if your shit was always in two separate houses.
Ellen Bruno:
Totally. Not only just is you're sitting two separate houses, but you're two different people. I mean, I would watch, I go pick up my kids at their dad's house, and their stepmom had a very different idea of how kids should dress. And so, here are these four and six-year olds coming out of the house in these clothes. And I'm like, "What the hell are they wearing those clothes for? Who is this kid?" And they were like in T-shirts and sweatpants at my house, and all of a sudden, they would be with their little [inaudible 00:27:02].
And it made me realize that these kids aren't just moving from space to space. These kids are moving, or what's being asked of them oftentimes is to actually be quite a different child, different behavior or different things are okay, different things are acceptable.
Seth Nelson:
It's a different environment. It's a totally different environment.
Ellen Bruno:
And so, to pay attention to that, they need to morph back into who they are at your house. And so, and believe me, I've lived it, you're so excited to see the kids after you haven't seen them for a while, that it's like, "Oh, okay, great. So, when you get home, we're going to go and we're going to do this and this and this, and we're going to engage, engage, engage, because I miss you so much." And the kids are like, "Oh my god." They just need this little bardo time. It's like couple hours of-
Seth Nelson:
Ellen, here's what I hear. Whenever the kids come back, it takes them two days to get back to being themselves.
Ellen Bruno:
Yeah. Well.
Seth Nelson:
It takes them two days. And by the time things are normal again, they're leaving, and I'm like, the issue and there's a problem. They point that they want to blame someone and guess who's candidate number one? The ex. So, what happens is I say, what are you doing when they come home? Are you going to give them a little bit of space? Are you going to give them a little bit of slack? Because they were adjusting to new rules do this, do that. So, with all that being said, depending on the age of the children, and a lot of high school kids love this, they go week on, week off.
Ellen Bruno:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
And I'm a big advocate for having that exchange day be on a Friday. And the reason I like that is because you have the weekend to adjust, not the school week to adjust. And then they're high school kids. You're not going to see them on the weekend anyway.
Ellen Bruno:
Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
And then when they're home for the school and stuff, it's like, I've lived it. But little kids, it's a little harder. A week is a long time to go without seeing a parent. So, they're going back and forth much more frequently, which makes this transition much more difficult.
Ellen Bruno:
Right. But parents shouldn't be upset if the teenager walks in the door and then they walk in their room and close the door for four hours. That kid needs to decompress or that.
Seth Nelson:
And that happens on every teenager.
Ellen Bruno:
Exactly. Or when the little kids just give them some space. If you feel like you absolutely need to be around the kid, then do something where they can space out a little bit. Have a baking project or let them color or do drawing in the same room with you, but just give them some space. And it's interesting, that's one thing that a lot of the older kids brought up in the film was this idea of how important it was to transition from this more regular back and forth when they were younger. Some of these kids literally every other day would switch.
Now, could you imagine how crazy making that is every other day back and forth, back and forth, back and forth? And then this realization. And one of them was very articulate saying, "When we were younger, we didn't need more of a connection to parents. But when we were older, it was just too disruptive. The week on, the week off was so much better. We could settle into the energy in the household. We could settle into rhythms. It's enough time to do that."
And sometimes kids even go two weeks on, two weeks off. It sounds kind of radical when your kids are young. I could never imagine that happening. But it's actually appropriate for some teenagers.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, absolutely.
Pete Wright:
It is foundational. It's a sense of here at least we give you some time to be centered. At least we give you some time to find a place. It's extraordinary. So, what's next? Legitimately curious, is there a path that continues with these kids into adulthood?
Ellen Bruno:
Well, I mean, wouldn't that be interesting? I mean, I'm interested just for what will happen very much like Seven Up. What'll happen when these same 12 kids in 10 years. But something else I'm really interested in is I think one of the problems we have in our culture and in reference to something I said earlier, is we really don't have very good role models as parents. For people that are doing divorce. Gwyneth Paltrow got a lot of shit for her unconscious coupling, unconscious uncoupling.
Pete Wright:
Unconscious uncoupling, right. Conscious coupling is how you got into it.
Ellen Bruno:
Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
That's what got us in this problem in the first place.
Pete Wright:
Now we have to consciously uncouple.
Ellen Bruno:
Exactly. Right. And it is a bit woo-woo, but there's something to be said for it, who are our positive role models? And so, when I look at the 12 kids in these films, believe me, I know all the parents, I know all 12 sets of parents. And I'm really kind of fascinated by this idea of talking to the parents, sort of like, okay, let's see if I can get all 12 sets of these parents in a room, not at the same time, but I can [inaudible 00:32:14].
Seth Nelson:
I was about to say, you are crazy.
Ellen Bruno:
No. And just say, okay, let's talk about it. What's your experience of this whole thing? We know what your kids experienced. We've heard from them two times in their lives. What's your experience and what's worked for you? What's been really hard? Because then it can be in the same way, just sort of a look from ... Parents can look at it and say, "Okay, this hard." And nobody's telling you otherwise, but despite its hardness, how are ways that we can make better choices despite how pissed off we are?
Seth Nelson:
But see, here's the thing about that with first off, parenting is hard, parenting is hard. There are some things about parenting that get much more difficult when you're parenting with someone who is not living under the same roof and you don't really have the desire, the need, the want to have any other relationship with that person other than parenting. And what I mean by that is it's not like when you get in a disagreement about the kids, you're going to try to work it out because you're going out tonight on a date with that person. The only real connection now is the kids.
Now, there's some things that get easier about parenting. You don't have the other parent telling you what you're doing wrong every single time with the kids. You want to make mac and cheese, make mac and cheese. You want to take them to McDonald's, take them to McDonald's. You want to stay up late and watch a movie, stay up late and watch a movie. You don't have those. But if you got three kids, man, you are way outnumbered. So, there's things that are harder, some things that are easier and overall parenting's hard in the best of circumstances.
Pete Wright:
I want to Shanghai that conversation just a little bit because I want to go back to this. What could we learn with another 10 years? There's this open question that you are uniquely positioned to help answer through film, which is how do children of divorce wind their way into future relationships as young adulthood? And how does this impact their relationships. And I'm really curious about that.
And I feel like these first two films have set us up and for the divorce impact on life. And so, here's hope and the clock ticks favorably over the next 10 years because these are wonderful, wonderful films. And I have to say, your production team is extraordinary, Ellen, extraordinary. The camera work is amazing. Ellen Kuras is one of our very favorites from Eternal Sunshine. I shot Andy Warhol, I mean just incredible filmmaking going on here. You've produced some beautiful insightful work.
Ellen Bruno:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
Please go check it out. And splitfilm.org is where you want people to go?
Ellen Bruno:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
Any big lessons you want to leave us with 8:00 AM day one. Where do you want people to start changing their lives?
Ellen Bruno:
I mean, I think what you mentioned is really interesting, and it was a big surprise to me, is that the way we sort of behave as parents is really signaling to our kids what's possible in terms of their own relationships, their own romantic relationships. And that was a big surprise for me. So, a lot of these kids are saying, "I don't know." They don't have a whole lot of faith in it, except for the few that have managed to maintain a relationship with the other parent, despite the difficulty. Those are the kids that are like, "You know what? I think I could do this."
So, I think that there's a way that parents don't understand all of the ways that their choices affect their kids sense of possibility. And in that way, I think the new film, looking back over the past 10 years, can really be a cautionary tale for parents in terms of-
Seth Nelson:
So, Ellen, I'm going to ask you a tough question here. I think it's tough. We'll see. And then after you answer, I'm going to tell you the reason why I'm asking it. If you had parents going through a divorce, what would you tell them why they really need to watch your films?
Ellen Bruno:
Well, I think that there's this way that we think or hope that our kids are being straight with us, but I think it's quite amazing the ways that kids aren't really straightforward with their parents always. And so, I think that there's something that's a comfortable distance for parents. These aren't their kids talking to them directly, which would be a little overwhelming and a little hard to really take in. These are just other kids, kids you don't know.
And so, there's this comfortable distance between our experiences and these kids, yet we recognize it so that something of them, there's some magic formula about that distance that allows it to be digested by parents. And it's also, these kids are funny and they're charming. They're not sitting around crying through the whole film. I mean, they're telling jokes. They're talking about funny experiences.
Pete Wright:
Fantastically charismatic.
Ellen Bruno:
Yeah. And so, there's a hopefulness to it. And the film actually is really exciting for kids to watch because they feel really sane and heard and they feel excited and they feel encouraged because these are a bunch of really cool kids. And they're like, "Wow, look at these cool kids talking to me straight. They're giving me the good and the bad and I trust them." And so, it's actually very comforting for kids.
And I think it can be for parents. Yes, there are some hard lessons to be learned, but there's also, you see how strong these kids are and how resilient they are. And that kids have an enormous amount of inner resources and they can mature faster than they would have otherwise. If they need to, they'll step up to the plate. They'll make sense of things. There's a lot our kids are doing that's fabulous.
Seth Nelson:
The reason why I asked is in the great state of Florida, parents are required to take a parenting course if you're getting divorced. And most of my parents are like, "Well, that was worthless." Some people get a little nugget. I think this should be required watching.
Pete Wright:
Required viewing. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
A hundred percent. And the reason why I ask the question the way I did is I'm sitting here thinking, I wonder if I can get a judge to order a parent to watch this.
Ellen Bruno:
Well, you know what? That what happens in San Francisco and its several courts throughout the country. You can't pass go in San Francisco without watching the first film.
Seth Nelson:
Love it.
Ellen Bruno:
It's part of the court orientation, and that's happening in Colorado and in Arizona. So, it's beginning to happen. So, hey.
Seth Nelson:
Well, I'm going to see what I can do-
Ellen Bruno:
[inaudible 00:39:20]. I'll work with you on that.
Seth Nelson:
I would love to work with you on getting that in Florida. That's why I asked.
Pete Wright:
That's wonderful. Well, links in the show notes for sure. Ellen Bruno, you're amazing, fantastic fandom right here of your work here. So, what better podcast than a divorce podcast to be a fan of your work.
Ellen Bruno:
I know how to have a good time. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
We sure appreciate you coming by and definitely go check out the film everybody, splitfilm.org. Ellen Bruno, thanks for being here.
Ellen Bruno:
Thank you.
Seth Nelson:
Hey, Pete, I know you know it, alarming every time. Alcohol abuse and alcoholism, according to the National Institute, on the same, talking like a lawyer here, 10% of the children live with a parent with an alcohol use disorder.
Pete Wright:
I don't know how you do it every day, Seth, come to work and seeing these kinds of statistics and dealing with these kinds of cases. I mean, I know as everybody's interested in making sure that we have kids that are with sober parents in spite of struggles that are real, that people are going through in their families. We got to get them through the divorce process safely and we got to get them through the divorce process healthily.
Seth Nelson:
Here's how I do it. Alcoholism or suffering from an alcohol use disorder is not in itself the problem in a divorce. It's the hearsay, the allegations, the weaponization of it all. And we have a solution where if you are suffering from alcoholism or if you're being accused of being an alcoholic, you can get rid of all the weaponization, all rid of the allegations, rid of the hearsay by using Soberlink.
Pete Wright:
We love Soberlink.
Seth Nelson:
It's a handheld device. You blow into. It has facial recognition. So, the other parent in the court that's going to see the results knows that it's you. Picture can only be used for court purposes. You put that in your agreement. So, you ask the court to put in the court order. They can't post that on social. And it monitors whether you have any blood alcohol content in that breathalyzer. And you can easily show the court that you weren't drinking when you have your kids.
When they're in your care, custody control, whether you're going to start driving, pick them up from school, drop them off, late at night when they're sleeping, whatever the case may be, it's real time. Third party independent verification that you're doing what you need to do, which is focusing on your kids and not drinking.
Pete Wright:
Soberlink has helped over 500,000 people prove their sobriety and provide peace of mind during parenting time. And you can get started right now. Just sign up and receive $50 off your device. Just visit soberlink.com/toaster, soberlink.com/toaster. Thank you to Soberlink for sponsoring this show. Seth, we have a listener question.
Seth Nelson:
Bring it on.
Pete Wright:
Are you ready for this? All right. So, this listener has written to us at howtosplitatoaster.com and they push the button, it said, submit your question, which is what you can do too. Don't forget, you could get set to answer your question just like Greg did. Here is Greg's question. Forgive me if I wander around this question, but I wonder from an attorney's perspective, how you feel about the memification of divorce trends?
I just listened to the Winning Your Divorce episode and it was good. The guests were fine, but my former spouse and I just closed the books on our divorce. And I think it's fair to say that we both got what we expected. Not everything we wanted, but we ended in a way that we both felt was fair enough.
We're broken, exhausted, lame. There is absolutely no bone in my body that feels like I won my divorce and that kind of language. And maybe right now I'm just raw, but it just me off. It's a marketing spin on a horrible process full of shame and loss and telling me that there's a way to win my divorce just feels mean. Do you think about this as an attorney, Seth? And I don't mean do you think about it relative to the podcast because I'm sure you do. But as a part of your practice, how do you think about the commodification of marketing messages around divorce and how they impact the people going through it? Thanks. Great show.
Thank you, Greg. Seth, big question.
Seth Nelson:
Brilliant question. I hate that shit too. There's no winning. Judges will tell you there's no one that's going to win in divorce. And then they say, except financially. Mr. Nelson, how much is your hourly rate? How many hours is it going to take you to try this case? Are you going to try this case if you're not getting paid?
There is a lot of things about the divorce industry. And I use that term purposely. It is an industry that I absolutely despise. The length of time that it takes, the way that people don't get relevant accurate information, the way that lawyers compete for clients and try to sell themselves as experts or I'll win or I will fight for you and all of this stuff. And I say some of those things because clients want to know that if I'm in court, I'm going to fight for them.
Pete Wright:
Sure.
Seth Nelson:
But we talk about do you want an aggressive lawyer or an effective lawyer? So, 100% agreement. I think it's horrible. I think it's terrible. The question is what can we do to change it throughout the country and all the different states bar rules? And there's rules on advertising. The problem is the bar polices itself, which never is really a great idea. And they're so overwhelmed when they get complaints. So, my heart goes out to you, Greg, on this issue.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Because it just feels bad. And I mean this is in no way an effort to apologize for the divorce industrial marketing complex. But in so many ways, this is kind of required practice to get noticed and not just noticed by people who need it in the divorce process, but by search engines and all of the infrastructure around marketing, both legal services and coaching services and all the services. And that is a sad reality of our time. And that means that beyond bar rules, the responsibility to listen to those signals is on. You got to turn it off. You got to turn it off.
Seth Nelson:
A hundred percent. And the other thing that Greg said in his question is at least they got to a point where they both thought it was fair. I've been doing this a long time-
Pete Wright:
That's rare.
Seth Nelson:
... I don't know what fair is because what I believe is fair and what someone else believes is fair can be totally different. And we both can be right. It's really not an objective point of view. And what I mean by that, some people will just say, "Well, look, if there's so much money, we should divide it evenly." But then someone says, "But that money was a gift for my parents. Why do I have to give her half?"
So, then you start getting in these details and the facts, and that's where a lot of the law is created, and that's the things that people argue about. And then the law isn't written clearly, and you're going in front of a governmental employee. And the real problem that I don't see as fixable, unfortunately, is in our society, if you're getting a divorce, we put you into an adversarial system, which means fighting and winning. The whole part, Greg, starts with our judicial system that I don't believe is the best way to resolve divorce disputes.
Pete Wright:
And yet it's the system we have.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly.
Pete Wright:
All right. Well, Greg, I hope that wasn't too downer of an answer.
Seth Nelson:
I agree with them.
Pete Wright:
We agree. You're absolutely right.
Seth Nelson:
This question is do I think about it. I think about it all the time.
Pete Wright:
All the time. Yes, absolutely, and really relate to it. So, Greg, thank you for asking the questions, for submitting it in such a thoughtful, not wandering way at all. You're better for doing it. Thank you. And thank you everybody for downloading listening to this show. Don't forget howtosplitatoaster.com. Press the button, just press the button, and you will submit your question to Seth for a future episode.
Thank you everybody for downloading listening to the show. We appreciate your time and attention. On behalf of myself and Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney, we'll see you right back here next week on How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
