Dissolving Your WAFFLES with Dr. Katie Nall
What to do when your Toaster’s feeding you waffles?
In this episode, Dr. Katie Nall, two-time TedX speaker, mathematician, and Accredited Master Trainer & Practitioner of the Emotional Freedom Technique, otherwise known as EFT, joins Seth and Pete to discuss a method that can help you while you’re going through your divorce learn to calm down and find your center again. The technique, also known as tapping, helps what Dr. Nall calls your ‘WAFFLES’ – worries, anxiety, fear, frustration, lethargy, exhaustion, and stress. Let’s face it – you’re likely going to experience ALL of these during your divorce. This technique can really help.
Plenty of people may be skeptical about it, but it’s worth a try, right? It costs nothing, you can do it by yourself all alone, and see if it helps. Both Pete and Seth try it during this episode and it helped them. So tune in to this episode to learn how to dissolve those WAFFLES and shed some of the emotional baggage you’re dragging behind you during your divorce.
More About Dr. Nall
Dr. Katie Nall not only has her Ph.D. in Mathematics Education, she also is a two-time TEDx speaker, a professional member of National Speakers Association, and an Accredited Master Trainer and Certified Practitioner in Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT) with additional training in trauma, quantum, and picture EFT. Whether in person or online, Dr. Nall shows others how to dissolve their WAFFLES – worry, anxiety, fear, frustration, lethargy, exhaustion, and stress. A careless housekeeper and worse cook with no desire for rehabilitation she somehow is still married to the same person for over 49 years.
Links & Notes
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How To Split a Toaster, a Divorce Podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. Today, what do you do when your toaster feeds you waffles?
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show, everybody. I'm Seth Nelson, and as always, I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. Divorce comes with a lot of baggage. Our guest this week is a PhD in Mathematics Education, a two-time TEDx speaker and an accredited master trainer and certified practitioner and emotional freedom technique. Dr. Katie Nall is here to show us how to dissolve our waffles and shed some of the emotional baggage we're dragging behind us in divorce. Dr. Nall, welcome to the Toaster.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Thank you so much. It's such an honor and pleasure to be on your guys' podcast. I'm so excited to be here.
Pete Wright:
Well, I'll tell you, we're thrilled to have you because you bring just a bucket of experience both in managing emotional issues that come with stress and anxiety, thanks, I imagine through your day job. And also, your not day job, you have a lot of experience within and around divorce, what's going on with your life.
Seth Nelson:
Before we get there, I know we just talked about dissolving our waffles, so we got to tell everyone what that means because pancakes and waffles in my house, when Kai was little, were a syrup delivery system.
Pete Wright:
And nothing else.
Seth Nelson:
That's all and we called it that. "Do you want a syrup delivery system for breakfast?" And she's like, "Yeah, I'll take pancakes."
Pete Wright:
I just use a big spoon. Anyway, so first, yes, let's talk about, I just want to lead into how you ended up dealing with the kinds of stresses and anxieties in the day job. That helps us get to talking about waffles and what waffles are and how your experience is going to help us get through that.
Dr. Katie Nall:
I was an administrator at a local community college, became a state college, and as a late in life graduate student earning my PhD in Mathematics Education, I wanted to help students overcome their fear and anxiety about math and test taking. In doing that, I researched how do you relieve fear and anxiety in math and test taking? And you know what? I found nothing. There's like nothing of it.
Pete Wright:
There's nothing. Right, right.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Nothing. And there's all these study tips and everything about once they're in on how to help them get through it. But I had a room full of students that had one class left to finish to graduate from college, and that class was math. I couldn't even get them to register for the class because they were so overwhelmed. But I recognized my question as a word problem and as a word problem, what you do is you pull out what you need, which is how do you relieve fear and anxiety.
That was in 2010 and I caught Nick Port's 10-day tapping summit and learned all about emotional freedom technique. They talked about how to reduce the waffles, reduce the worries, anxiety, fear, frustration, lethargy, exhaustion and stress from things like financial stress, from relationships, from work stress, everything else. But nobody mentioned math and nobody mentioned tests, so I had no idea if it was going to work on this room full of students, but they were desperate. And you know as attorneys that desperate clients will do anything, right?
Seth Nelson:
Well, yeah and usually the anything, the desperate clients, the anything is really bad.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Yeah. Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
It's not like they say, "Oh, I'm so desperate. Let me give you all the financial documents we need to help you do the divorce case," right?
Dr. Katie Nall:
No, no, no. So, I had a room full of desperate clients and I said, "Okay, I have no idea if this is going to work or not. Let's try it." So, I brought them in one by one and we did this tapping thing. And then I sat and waited for weeks, wondering if it was going to work or not.
Pete Wright:
So, you're waiting for them to take tests and get their act together?
Dr. Katie Nall:
Yeah, yeah. It was this crazy thing we were doing that did not any effect. And then one by one, they started coming back and saying, "I'm not really sure, but I think I'm passing math." Well, I didn't know who was more surprised them or me because I didn't know if it was going to work or not. I went back and I said, "I really have got to study this because I have no idea what I'm doing."
So, I went back and I got level 1, level 2, level 3, Quantum, which deals with past lives, that's a whole another interesting thing. Picture tapping, supervisor, mentoring. And then finally, I became a master trainer, so I could train others because once I saw the power of this, I wanted everybody to see it, right?
Seth Nelson:
Right. So, what is EFT?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, that's what we want to get to because that is a great transition to the stress, anxiety, fear, the waffles that come with a divorce, the high stress of a divorce.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Yeah. And I know about that. My mother was married and I come from a very large family. I had I think 14 siblings and seven parents out of the whole thing by time [inaudible 00:05:22] divorce and stuff. And my husband is a divorce attorney and my daughter is an attorney as well, so yeah, I know about that.
Seth Nelson:
Surrounded, she's surrounded, Pete. You need to get home.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Yeah. Exactly, exactly. Emotional Freedom Technique, which is one way dissolve your waffles is a brain-based somatic technique. And by that, I mean, it's a clinically tested way to reduce your stress. In fact, if you do one hour of tapping, it's also called tapping, they have found that your cortisol levels are reduced by 42%. Now when your stressed, your adrenal and your cortisol levels go up and so reducing that is amazing, in one hour, with no side effects. Well, the only side effect is you may no longer have stress, but-
Seth Nelson:
I'll take it.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Yeah. Exactly. It's a very simple technique. If one of you are game, I'll be glad to demonstrate it.
Seth Nelson:
So, you guys didn't see this, but I literally just took a step back. So, if you guys are standing next to each other and I just stepped back as if he stepped forward to test, to volunteer. It's so nice of you, Pete.
Pete Wright:
Look, you are such a cheat. Let me just tell you. We agreed that it was going to be rock, paper, scissors, and now, you outed me anyway. All right. I'm fine doing it. I can be the gentleman of the state, in this case.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
And I did it this way, Pete, because I didn't want to embarrass you. I've never lost a rock, paper, scissors.
Pete Wright:
I'll be Hamilton to your Aaron Burr, sir. All right. So, tell, how do I need to set myself up here?
Dr. Katie Nall:
Okay, so I'm going to ask you a series of questions. There's no wrong answers, then I will lead you through this. And for those who are listening audience, we'd love for you to come along with us, except if you're driving. If you're driving pause, listen to this part later, or pull over to the side of the road because this can really mess with you besides the fact that you're going to use your hands.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Dr. Katie Nall:
So, here's the questions. In the last 24 to 48 hours, have you had any waffles? Have you had anything that's caused you worry, anxiety, fear, frustration, lethargy, exhaustion, or stress?
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Okay, that's great. Now, here's what's interesting. When you work with tapping Emotional Freedom Technique, you don't have to tell me what it is. Now, you're free to say what it's if you'd like, but if you don't want to, we can go to the next question. What would you rather do?
Pete Wright:
Well, I think, honestly not for any other reason than it's sort of multivariate and it would take too long to just explain. So, I think let's move in and we can demo.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Okay, so this multivariate one thing that's causing you waffles, when did it last happen?
Pete Wright:
This morning.
Dr. Katie Nall:
This morning. And where were you this morning when it last happened?
Pete Wright:
Well, see now, this is going to sound strange, I was in bed.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Okay, that's fine. When you think about this multi-variate thing and this morning in bed, what emotion is coming up now? What negative emotion is coming up now?
Pete Wright:
Fear.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Fear. Okay, okay.
Pete Wright:
Physical discomfort. Okay, I can't even do it. It's because I'm dealing with some heart stuff right now and I have these radical palpitations where my heart rate will go up to 160 beats a minute for a few seconds and then it will swing way back down. And we don't know why that is. We think it's related to something COVID, whatever. But anyway, that's what I'm dealing with. And at 3:30 in the morning it woke me up and I was incredibly stressed and I never went back to bed. I've just been sitting here thinking about it, stewing it in the back of my mind. So, I don't know if that helps you. That's kind of where I am.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Yeah, no, that's great. And Pete, when you think about it right now, the emotion you're having right this moment, is it fear, stress, worry? Which one is it?
Pete Wright:
Do I have to pick one?
Dr. Katie Nall:
Yeah, just one.
Pete Wright:
I'll call it fear.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Fear? Okay.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Dr. Katie Nall:
So, from the top of your head to the bottom of your toes, this fear, where do you feel it in your body?
Pete Wright:
Maybe, unsurprisingly, in my chest.
Dr. Katie Nall:
In your chest. Okay. And this is the somatic part because we work within the body. And from zero to 10, where zero is like, "Oh, no big deal. I know I'm going to be fine," and 10 is the most fear you've had in your entire life, right here in this moment, how high is that fear?
Pete Wright:
A seven.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Okay, okay. That's great. And is this a true statement, "Right here, right now, I feel safe?"
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Okay. If it's not a true statement, for those who are listening, you can say. "Right here, right now, I accept the way I feel," or "Right here, right now, at some point, I hope to feel safe."
Pete Wright:
I actually like that. Right here, right now, at some point, I hope to feel safe.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Okay, that sounds good, because everything we say has got to be true. So, my last question is if I ask you to repeat anything, Pete, because I'm going to have you repeat some words after me, and you go, "You know, I wouldn't say it that way," or "I wouldn't use those words, would you do me a big favor and put it in your own words for me?"
Pete Wright:
Sure.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Okay, so we're ready to start. You ready?
Pete Wright:
I'm ready.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Okay, so put one hand in front of your face with you're looking at your palm. And if you're looking at your palm, the side of your hand where you have the wrist, between your wrist and your little finger, that area right there, take four fingers of your other hand and tap right there. So, we're going to tap. We have four fingers of one hand tapping on the other side of the other hand between the wrist and little finger. And then repeat after me and say, "Even though..."
Pete Wright:
Even though...
Dr. Katie Nall:
"... this morning at 3:30..."
Pete Wright:
... this morning at 3:30...
Dr. Katie Nall:
"... I felt those heart palpitations."
Pete Wright:
... I felt those heart palpitations.
Dr. Katie Nall:
"And thinking about it now..."
Pete Wright:
And thinking about it now...
Dr. Katie Nall:
"... I feel this fear in my chest."
Pete Wright:
... I feel this fear in my chest.
Dr. Katie Nall:
"And someday, I hope to feel safe."
Pete Wright:
And someday, I hope to feel safe.
Dr. Katie Nall:
And we're going to do a version of that two more times. "Even though..."
Pete Wright:
Even though...
Dr. Katie Nall:
"... it was 3:30 this morning in bed..."
Pete Wright:
... it was 3:30 this morning in bed...
Dr. Katie Nall:
"... and I woke up with heart palpitations."
Pete Wright:
... and I woke up with heart palpitations.
Dr. Katie Nall:
"And thinking about it now..."
Pete Wright:
And thinking about it now...
Dr. Katie Nall:
"... ugh, I feel this fear in my chest."
Pete Wright:
... ugh, I have this fear in my chest.
Dr. Katie Nall:
"And someday, I hope to feel safe."
Pete Wright:
And someday, I hope to feel safe.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Last time. "Even though..."
Pete Wright:
Even though...
Dr. Katie Nall:
"... right now, I have this fear in my chest."
Pete Wright:
... right now, I have this fear in my chest.
Dr. Katie Nall:
"Remembering about 3:30 this morning..."
Pete Wright:
Remembering about 3:30 this morning...
Dr. Katie Nall:
"... when I woke up with those heart palpitations..."
Pete Wright:
... when I woke up with those heart palpitations...
Dr. Katie Nall:
"... and right here, right now, someday, I hope to feel safe."
Pete Wright:
... and right here, right now, someday, I hope to feel safe.
Dr. Katie Nall:
And then, we're going to tap on top of the head, and you can use one hand or the other, or both, it doesn't matter. And tap and say, "This fear in my chest."
Pete Wright:
This fear in my chest.
Dr. Katie Nall:
And then go above your nose on the edge of your eyebrow and say, "This fear in my chest."
Pete Wright:
This fear in my chest.
Dr. Katie Nall:
And then on your temple, between your eye, into your eye and your hairline, you're going to say, "This fear in my chest."
Pete Wright:
This fear in my chest.
Dr. Katie Nall:
And the next spot, Pete, is where I keep all my bags for a quick getaway, and that's under my eyes. We're going to tap there and say, "This fear in my chest."
Pete Wright:
This fear in my chest.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Under your nose, above your lips, "This fear in my chest."
Pete Wright:
This fear in my chest.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Under your lips, above your chin, "This fear in my chest."
Pete Wright:
This fear in my chest.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Cross your wrist and with your fingertips, tap on your collarbone and say, "This fear in my chest."
Pete Wright:
This fear in my chest.
Dr. Katie Nall:
And then on your ribs, tap and say, "This fear in my chest."
Pete Wright:
This fear in my chest.
Dr. Katie Nall:
And then put your hands on your opposite shoulder and we're going to rub our hands down to our elbows as we blow our air out like a cartoon character. It looks like this.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Dr. Katie Nall:
So, Pete, when you think about this morning, right now, how does your chest feel from 0 to 10, that level of fear?
Pete Wright:
I don't know, four or five? I can't tell if it's because all the tapping has sufficiently distracted me, or if I'm foundationally feeling different.
Dr. Katie Nall:
It doesn't matter.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I guess it doesn't matter.
Dr. Katie Nall:
It's definitely energy movement. If you do it enough times, if you repeat it, listen to this again and repeat it.
Pete Wright:
And just keep doing it.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Yeah, you'll get it down to zero. And clinical studies have shown that Emotional Freedom Technique, EFT or tapping, is more effective than cognitive behavior therapy. How many of your clients go through that, talk therapy
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Talk therapy. Right.
Dr. Katie Nall:
And it's just as effective as something called EMDR, Eye Movement Desensitization Reprogramming. With EMDR, you have to be sitting physically in front of a licensed therapist in case you have what's called an abreaction, go back into your trauma. And with tapping, you could work with a mathematician and do it over Zoom like clients I have all over the world have been doing for 12 years, 13 years now. And the beauty of it is, it puts the power of you controlling your own emotions in your own hands, so that you now are in control. And I love that part.
Pete Wright:
According to the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and alcoholism, 10% of children live with a parent with an alcohol use disorder. Seth, horrible news.
Seth Nelson:
Horrible news, but I like the way you say it. It's an alcohol use disorder. It's not a drunk. It's not can't handle your booze. It's not all this other stuff because as a family law professional, I know this stat. We've talked about it before. It's still alarming to me, but when you demonize alcohol in the court system, it's going to cost you more money than saying, "Hey, I believe my spouse has an alcohol use disorder." Whether you call that alcoholism, whatever other terms there are, but if you keep it as a disorder, then we can identify it, we can deal with it, and we can try to keep your kids safe.
Pete Wright:
That's the whole point is keeping kids safe and getting the parents the help that they need when they need it. That's why we have partnered with Soberlink. Soberlink is a fantastic partner of this show and one of the most important tools you can have in data collection around behavior with alcohol related to your kids. You used Soberlink. I mean, not yourself.
Seth Nelson:
I do not use it myself. I have a demo right here on my desk drawer that I use with my clients all the time. And it's that simple. You pull it out. It's a little device, handheld. It has a tube that you can take off and clean, which is important. Take it off, clean it, boom. You blow into it. It has facial recognition, so it knows that it's you and it will send an immediate alert to whoever is signed up to get it.
Whether it's your lawyer, whether it is a child custody evaluator, whether it's your soon-to-be former spouse or former spouse or parent of your child, the other parent of your child, to let them know, "Hey, there's no alcohol in my system. And therefore I am focused on the kids 100%. I am not distracted by alcohol or alcoholism or drinking and I'm going to keep them safe."
And that's the key. When you have independent third party verification in real time, it undercuts anything that anyone can say to you about you in court because you do that whenever you have the kids, they're in your care, custody and control. And the other side keeps saying, "No, he's drinking. No, she's drinking." And you go into court with six months of tests saying, "Judge, every time I've had them, I haven't had a sip, I haven't had a drop in my breath. I'm good." That's a game changer.
Pete Wright:
Soberlink's promote alcohol monitoring tool has helped over 500,000 people to prove their sobriety and provide peace of mind during parenting time.
Seth Nelson:
I know people out there and I hear it all the time, "I shouldn't have to do this. I'm sober." I'm like, I get it. But every judge hears, "No, I'm not an alcoholic. Yes, he is." And let's just dispense with that. And then they say, well, if they ask me why do I do it? It's simple. "My co-parent is concerned about something and I take it seriously, so I'm willing to show her and the court that this isn't a problem. How does that ring in the judge's ear compared to, "No, I don't drink."
Pete Wright:
We love Soberlink. We love how Soberlink helps people, parents and kids and families alike. And you can sign up and receive $50 off your device by visiting soberlink.com/toaster. That's soberlink.com/toaster. Thank you Soberlink for being a fantastic partner to this show for sponsoring How To Split a Toaster. Again, soberlink.com/toaster.
Seth Nelson:
I need to ask, but we've done some other shows with folks who are experienced with tapping and EMDR, and they say the same thing you've said, which is it is incredibly effective. So, what do you say to the people who are at a point in their lives, they're stressed, they're overwhelmed, and they say, "I'm not going to try this tapping thing. It's just too bonkers. I don't know. I can't bring myself to do it."
Dr. Katie Nall:
If they don't, that's fine. What happens though is those kind of people are usually recommended to come in by somebody else, a loving spouse, a family member. And so, I've had that situation where a parent would pay for and request that an adult child get the tapping because they can see the pain that their adult child is going through. And when that happens, I always recommend that I tap first with the person who's making the recommendation, so that we tap on how they feel about the situation.
And then if the person will agree to come to a session, because sometimes they just don't show up. But if they will agree to come to a session, the first thing we tap on is how they feel that tapping is ineffective. I ask them, "Okay, so what do you think about it?" And they say, what was the word you used, wonky or something?
Seth Nelson:
Bonkers. Yeah.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Bonkers. They think it's bonkers. And so I'll ask them, "Okay, so where do you feel that in your body?" And we tap on that and their resistance goes to zero. And frequently the response I get is, "What just happened? What are you doing?"
Seth Nelson:
Right. And bonkers is a good word. It's also a great Scrabble word for your Scrabble players out there.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, if you want to go for the high points, yeah, right.
Seth Nelson:
Right, exactly. And we have a mathematician here, so we can add them up a triple word score.
Dr. Katie Nall:
I love it.
Seth Nelson:
But here's the thing. And so, in preparation for this, I went on WebMD where I frequently go, and they said a lot of things that you just said, which I think is all very true. First off, there is a study out there that showed that the heart rate and blood pressure of it lowered and the cortisol levels were also lowered. From a clinical perspective, some of the negative out there is all the feedback comes from the participants, so it's hard to really judge. Like Pete said, "Well, am I just distracted? Do I feel differently now?" Or is it the placebo effect? So, let's just take the placebo effect. If that works, who cares?
Dr. Katie Nall:
Exactly. Exactly.
Pete Wright:
Well, and we've talked about that before, too, Seth. And I think your response to things like journaling as a way to approach mindfulness. You've said many times on this show, journaling is for you, it's not right. It doesn't stick.
Seth Nelson:
Nonstarter Never going to happen.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, never going to happen. And yet, you're not skeptic on mindfulness activities.
Seth Nelson:
No, not at all. I'm big into mindfulness. I think that's really important, but other people are like, "I cannot just sit still. I need to be doing something." And for a guy like me that's really active, it's kind of funny that journaling isn't my thing because I write for the law, I do all this. But I'm like, "Hmm, did I spell that word right?" And I want to just auto correct it and it's just distracting. It's just not my thing.
But to your point, Pete, there's different ways, I think this is what you're saying, to kind of exhale, like, "It's going to get better."
Pete Wright:
I got to get this point out of my head because you just said something that made me realize why I felt distracted, and it's because this fear that I felt at 3:30 in the morning that woke me up. I think the thing that that transition, whether or not I'm not fearful of it anymore, I felt free of judgment, of self-judgment. And I don't know if that's the act of saying it out loud or saying it and pairing it with this movement, but judgment. I mean, is that a thing that you hear from folks? Because that's something I can put my finger on because I am big on self-judgment.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Yeah, people are.
Pete Wright:
That's my, yeah, 8:00 AM Monday morning.
Dr. Katie Nall:
We were trained that way. There's only one correct answer, right? Yeah, yeah.
Pete Wright:
But saying all that over and over, maybe it's because it's in front of you. That sort of piece of vulnerability to it that might help. But I don't know. What are your thoughts on tapping and freeing yourself from that sort of evil eye?
Dr. Katie Nall:
Well, there's a couple of things. I want to follow up on Seth's comment. The developer of Emotional Freedom Technique, Gary Craig, tried this out, and so the story goes, at the Veterans Administration Hospital. And he worked with veterans who were from the Vietnam War, had been hospitalized in drugs for 40 years. The story goes that he worked with them individually for one week and in one week, these veterans were no longer dependent on drugs and were released from the hospital.
So, the nice... there's a lot of... I understand mindfulness, I understand other things. What I like, there's so many things I like about tapping. I'm so passionate about it. One of them is that it's self-administered. It's noninvasive and it is not addictive. The other thing is clinical studies have shown that when you do tapping on how you feel about a certain event or certain experience, that negative emotion does not return. And I thought was... that blew me away.
I was somebody who went to a counselor once a week for four years to rebalance the stuff from the childhood. And as I was going out the door, we both agreed that I was much better, things were going well. I'm going out the door and he says, "Oh, there's one more thing, Katie." And I said, "Okay, what is it?" And he said, "You may have some of these same feelings again if similar circumstances come up." And I turned around and said, "What? Well, I thought we were done and over." And he's like, "No, it might come back."
Well, the nice thing with tapping and a short example that I have is that I had a 6-ft. tall retired Air Force officer, who was now working at a ranch. And came to me, said he was scared of spiders, which he didn't want to admit. Great big tall Air Force officer, but he worked at a ranch, and so, that was important to get through the spiders. And I said, "What is it about the spiders that you don't like?" He's like, "I hate going through their webs. It's just, it's a horrible feeling."
So, we worked and diminished that to zero, that he no longer had this fear of going through the webs. When I saw him a few weeks later and I said, "Hey, how's it going with spiders?" And he said, "Oh, my God, I hate them." I said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. I thought we got this all done." He said, "Oh, I don't mind the webs anymore, but I hate the way they walk. You know it just gives me creep." And I said, "Okay, that's what we call another aspect of the spiders." I said, "And we can work on that." And he's like, "Oh, no, we're not doing that again."
So, that fear that you have of waking up at 3:30 in the morning from heart palpitations, once you get it to zero, it does not return. Now, you may have other emotions, like you may be worried about things or there may be other things about it, but the fear will not return.
Pete Wright:
Well, that's something I think that's interesting. I had this question, which I think you've already answered, but I need to say it out loud just to clear my conscience, is at what point during a particular waffle, say in the divorce process, are you employing something like tapping? And it sounds like it's any time.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Yeah. I have clients who tap for an hour a day. Just because-
Pete Wright:
Just as a practice. Yeah.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Yeah, and there's stressors hitting us all the time. You will see me driving around town usually with one hand while the other hand is going, "I can't believe that guy just pulled up in front of me." And I'm tapping my hands, so I'm going through. I mean, unbelievable.
Pete Wright:
Okay, so from the perspective of technique, like for people who are listening to this, I'm assuming as a master in this practice, you're not saying, "Okay, now, you're experts. Go ahead and start tapping yourself all over your head." What does somebody do, who's listening to this, who says, "I'd like to start a small daily tapping practice," how did you decide to do what you did with me just now?
Dr. Katie Nall:
As I mentioned, I was working on my PhD. It took me four years working full-time to earn my PhD in Mathematics Education. All I wanted to do once I found tapping was I wanted to train others in it. That's all I wanted to do. And it took me eight years to become a master trainer. Now, you can take an eight... of course, you can get tapping. There's like thousands of videos on Emotional Freedom Technique and demonstrations on YouTube, including mine. You can get tapping sessions. And during a tapping session, you pretty much, you get what we call the basic recipe, which is what we went through. There are many apps that-
Pete Wright:
The script?
Dr. Katie Nall:
And you can also take an eight-hour course on learning how to tap on yourself, your family, and your friends. And you can do that and then that, that's called level 1. And then if you want to become certified, you go on to level 2, which is an additional 12 hours and tests and all of that.
Seth Nelson:
Here is what I'm thinking.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
I'm thinking there are people out there that are like, "This can't work. There's no way." And I like to address that head on, and I would, like I said, when I was preparing, I went on WebMD because I had never heard of this before. When I was reading it, I'm like, "I don't see." And then you went through it with Pete and I will share with everyone. I was anxious about something today and I was going through the technique when Pete was going through his, trying to relax my mind and just think about what we were saying.
It was saying, "Is it really working or not?" I was a little bit of skeptic while I was doing it, but WebMD kind of saved me on this because it said, "Look, it's painless. There's no cost. It's super easy to do. It doesn't take a lot of time." So, I would encourage the skeptics out there. Can't hurt to try it.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
There's no downside.
Dr. Katie Nall:
None of that.
Seth Nelson:
There's no downside. It's not medication. You're not going to a therapist. You're not doing this, you're not doing that. You're not spending money. You're not trying to schedule an appointment. This is something that you can do by yourself at the privacy of your own home, wherever you want to be. If you think you look silly tapping the top of your head, then that's fine. Do it wherever. If it works, thank Dr. Nall. If it doesn't work, blame Pete.
Pete Wright:
Well, that was a hard left turn.
Seth Nelson:
You like that? So, that was just my thought on this because I know that there are people out there listening to this show that might be like, "I'll try anything. I'm desperate." Like your math students. But there are other people like, "Hmm, I'm really not into this stuff."
Pete Wright:
I think, Seth, we need to close the chapter on the math students because that's a story you didn't finish. The grades start coming in and what happened?
Dr. Katie Nall:
So, I had so many students who passed their class, and Pete and Seth, it wasn't just they'd pass their class. These students that had come to me had one class left to finish, so they not only passed their math class, they were able to get their degree and they were able to get the job they wanted and change their lives. So, it wasn't just the math class. That was the part that was exciting. They were more astounded.
I still keep in touch with some of the students who say, "Oh, I get it now, Dr. Nall. I use it all the time." And I ran into one of my students. She was there with three kids at the Chick-fil-A, and they were playing in the playground and she said, "I use it every day."
Seth Nelson:
Well, let's talk about that when you use it. Because from what I understood, this is looks backwards. So, what happened? Were you anxious about something? Let me use it. The idea is then to prevent that from happening in the future. A lot of us out there going through divorces, it's stressful dealing with our soon-to-be former spouse. You know there's going to be an interaction.
You get the text, you get the email, you get the phone, and it's their name. Even though you might have changed their name to something that you hope doesn't come out in court. It's stressful talking to lawyers. It's stressful when you're going to be deposed or going to court. So when there is a stressor coming, is that a good time to do this? When is a good time going through the divorce process? You are about to do an exchange with the children. I can think of thousands of these.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Every piece of it, even when you're trying to decide whether to get a divorce or not. Because, so let's talk a little bit, Seth, about forward facing things. So, let's say I've got to drop off the kids and I'm going to meet my spouse. And they haven't their child support, we'll say it like that. And I'm so mad. Now, the best, a little aside, when we are in our waffles state, we don't think clearly. And the reason why we don't think clearly is not enough oxygen is getting to our brain.
Dissolving our waffles allows us to make better decisions and release the emotions, so that we can behave the adults were supposed to be. So, having said that, imagine that I'm going to be dropping off the kids, the spouse hasn't paid the child support, and I am livid. So, you start talking about, "Okay, in four hours I'm going to be dropping off the kids. And I just, I don't even want to see them, and they better have a check in their hand." And when I think about it, I am livid and I feel it in my stomach. And so you go through all of that, livid in my stomach, livid in my stomach. So, the steps are the same. You focus on the emotion and the location.
Seth Nelson:
So, I'm going to change your hypothetical a little bit.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Sure.
Seth Nelson:
Instead of worrying about a check that hasn't been paid, redundant, like "I know he's going to make a comment. I know he's going to be rude, I know, whatever or I get a text and I'm about to read it or you know who it is, and you're like, "Mm-mm." So, just in that, this is the question, is whatever the emotion I'm feeling, I should tap that out before I read it, before I respond?
Dr. Katie Nall:
The emotion and where it is in the body. Because that's the somatic method.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Okay. So, to listeners out there, you can do this anytime. Remember, it's cheap, it's inexpensive. You can do it any time. And if you know you're going to be stressed out because just dealing with them is stressful, calling your lawyer is stressful.
Well, I mean, we bought an office building. We moved. Let me tell you, a lot of clients said, "Oh, my God. It's so less stressful coming here because I don't have to deal with that high-rise downtown parking lot where you drive around and around and around looking for a spot." That was a stressor on my clients. And we really tried to focus on the client experience and every little thing matters, so having better, simpler parking is less stressful.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Right. Good on you.
Seth Nelson:
Whatever the case may be. So, try it out.
Pete Wright:
Well, I'll tell you, I think it's fascinating. And I feel like you asked if I've been feeling any stress, and it's like the universe is sending a signal that you end up on this show today. You lead me through this process, right as I am dealing with this deeply personal medical fear or physiological fear. And I'm so grateful that you are here and that you have taught us a little bit about how this works. And I'm eager to follow up and continue to practice this myself and just see if I can get that four, five down to a zero. I sure would like to. I sure would like to. Oh, God.
Dr. Katie Nall:
I'm sure you can. I'm sure you can. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Where can people find out some more about you, Katie? Let's say they want to join your math classes. I'm kidding. That's a joke.
Dr. Katie Nall:
I'm on all social media as Katie Nall, PhD, K-A-T-I-E N-A-L-L, PhD. My website is my last name Nall, N-A-L-L, followed by the word, edge, E-D-G-E, C-O.com. It's nalledgecompany.com. And I will challenge your listeners to give me a call. I'd love to hear about their own individual waffles. They can reach me at area code 772-226-0167. That's (772) 226-0167.
Pete Wright:
Dropping the phone number in the show. Seth, what do think about that?
Seth Nelson:
I know.
Pete Wright:
That's bold.
Seth Nelson:
Right. That's awesome.
Pete Wright:
I love it. I love it.
Dr. Katie Nall:
Nobody ever calls. I keep leaving it out and nobody calls.
Pete Wright:
Nobody calls?
Dr. Katie Nall:
I'm so tired.
Pete Wright:
Well...
Seth Nelson:
[inaudible 00:36:35].
Pete Wright:
... phones are hard.
Seth Nelson:
That's one of my pet peeves. Let me tell you. That's one of my pet peeves. I'll talk to people, I'm like, "Hey, did you do this? I sent three emails." I'm like, "Call." But it's all a text or anything. I'm like, "I actually don't-"
Pete Wright:
Look, I know I'm part of the problem. I'm part of the problem.
Seth Nelson:
I don't know why we have microphones on our phone, but to do voice to text.
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
I'm not sure.
Pete Wright:
That's accurate, that's accurate.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, Pete. I remember I'd listened to Pete's voicemail and it says, "I will not listen to your voicemail. Send me a text."
Pete Wright:
That's true. "I love you. Don't leave a message."
Seth Nelson:
It's awful.
Pete Wright:
Well, hey, this has been a real treat. So appreciate this. Katie, thank you so much for the tour and the tutorial about EFT. Seth, I know Seth is a better person for it. We were watching him do it live what we were... he said he backed up and everything, but he's on board.
Seth Nelson:
I'll give it a go.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
I'll give it a try.
Pete Wright:
I love it.
Seth Nelson:
I was a skeptic it. I thought about mine. My anxiety about that went down. Like you said, Pete, I don't know why, but hey.
Pete Wright:
It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Thanks, Katie. Thank you, everybody, for downloading and listening to this show. We sure appreciate your time and your attention. If you have any questions for the show, just head over to howtosplitatoaster.com. You'll see a button that says, "I have a question," and you can ask that question and we'll answer it on the show.
We would love to hear more about your experience with EFT and beyond. On behalf of Dr. Katie Nall and Seth Nelson.
Seth Nelson:
America's favorite divorce attorney.
Pete Wright:
I'm Pete Wright. We'll catch you right here next week on How to Split a Toaster, a Divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How To Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
