Learning to Take the High Road with Andy Heller
Why Is It So Hard to Take the High Road?
In the last decade, Andy Heller wrote two books on real estate investing while running an international freight forwarding company. So why is he the guest on this episode? Well... then he got divorced.
Andy took the lessons of the challenges of that experience and reframed it into his third book, “Take the High Road: Divorce with Compassion for Yourself and Your Family.” He joins us to talk about all the roads he has taken along the way, and why learning to take the high road is the most important.
Links & Notes
“Take the High Road” on the web and Facebook
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships from TruStory FM. Today, what happens when your toaster loses the map to the high road?
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everybody. I'm Seth Nelson. As always, I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. Our guest today is Andy Heller. In the last decade, he wrote two books on real estate investing while running an international freight forwarding company. Then he got divorced. He took the lessons of the challenges of that experience and reframed it into his third book, Take the High Road: Divorce with Compassion for Yourself and Your Family. He joins us this week to talk about all the roads he has taken along the way. Andy, welcome to the Toaster.
Andy Heller:
Thank you, Seth, and thank you for the kind words.
Pete Wright:
Well, Andy, it's great to have you here. This book, of course, there is a cottage industrial complex of people trying to figure out how to get a good divorce. Your book is titled Take the High Road, and I want to know how you got to this point of feeling like the high road was the metaphor for arriving at a satisfactory close to your divorce.
Andy Heller:
I'll give you kind of the short answer, Pete. I'm not a divorce attorney like Seth. I'm not a therapist. I'm not a divorce support specialist. I'm just a guy who went through a challenging divorce. In the process of going through my own divorce, seeing a therapist and seeking counsel from people like Seth, I recognize I did some things well, some things not so well, some things kind of okay, and a little bit about me, guys, I'm the guy in every group of friends who prides themself on being a reasonable thinker. My friends come to me for how to rationally handle a complex situation. My counsel-
Pete Wright:
More than splitting the tip at a bar, right?
Andy Heller:
Correct.
Pete Wright:
That's for somebody else.
Andy Heller:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, but see, Andy, they come to me and they say, "Seth, I know you screwed this up in your life before, so tell me the mistake you made. I'm going to do the difference," so we're very similar.
Pete Wright:
Your life serves as a warning for others. Yeah, tell me how we should handle this now.
Andy Heller:
Well, we are very similar. The point and the genesis for me to write this book, gentlemen, is I realized that I was making oftentimes decisions that sounded like at least an initial thought process were the sensible ones, but in some cases, they were the polar opposite of what I should have done. The lesson that I took away from this experience is that even the most together and grounded men and women, we don't realize the degree to which we are emotionally compromised as we're going through the process, which is why we need a really reasonable attorney. We need sometimes a therapist. We need that one person in our world who says, "Look, dude, look, lady, your thought process is really not... You're doing the wrong thing." We all don't have that.
There's really great books out there from attorneys and therapists and divorce co-parent counselors. I'm just a businessman. What I did was an eight-year project, Pete. I interviewed specialist like Seth. I took their best advice and I organized it like a business manual of best practice about how to get through divorce. Now, about the title, what your question is, if I had to do over again, I would pick a different title, and I'll tell you why. Somebody looks at my title and said, "Oh, this guy's saying take the high road. He is saying just compromise all the time." That's not the point, and Seth will understand exactly what I'm about to say. There is a direct relationship, everybody, between the number of conflict points and what you're paying, how long the legal process lasts, and your stress.
If you can go to your attorney and say, "Look, these are the two or three things that I want to accomplish when the process is over. This is what's important to me," everything else, it's not as important. Compromise. You focus on a smaller number of issues, but the ones that are vitally important to you, so you arm your attorney with the ammunition to get the deal done faster and actually hit your goals. The other thing is if you're not arguing about as many things, your own stress goes down too, so taking the high road is not about giving away the farm, everybody. It's about understanding the importance of focus on two or three things that are really important, arming your attorney with those items, and everything else, okay, yeah, I do want to fight about this, but it's just not that important.
Seth Nelson:
What happens on something like this, which is something I deal with on a daily basis? As you know, Pete, we go through that process. What are your goals? Sometimes, I'll ask someone, "What's your goal for this conversation?", and they'll say, "I want him out of the house." I say, "Well, that's not happening in this conversation because we're not even in court. There's a long ways to get to that." What happens is the more things that I settle, and I kind of move those big rocks that Andy's talking about, I get the two or three things that they want to get done, done, then they're going to start going to the smaller stuff and the smaller stuff, and then the what ifs.
I'm like, "Whoa, wait a minute. You just told me these were your three major objectives. We got them. We didn't get everything we wanted out of them, but we got them resolved," and then they almost don't know how to be like, "Okay, I'm good. Don't worry about the rest of this stuff." It's like every little thing is still going to be an argument because they're kind of in that fight mode, that adversarial system that we so intelligently put divorcing couples in sarcastically, right? Andy, how did you deal with that once people get over the big humps or the big things, but then they keep fighting?
Andy Heller:
This is self-control. This advice came to me from attorneys such as you. When you're interviewing attorneys, ladies and gentlemen, you're going to have that meeting. You kind of have to reach an advance agreement and don't go back on your word. For example, if I'm a client of Seth, I say, "Seth, these are the two things that are really important to me. I want to arrive at 50/50 custody within a year and a half, and I want to make sure that if one of us meets a new partner, I'm not faced with moving around the country. This is my home." Everything else is a little bit less important. You focus on these two things.
If your attorney... It's those two things. You got to have a bit of self-control. Maybe you have this meeting with Seth and you say, "Seth, if you achieve these goals, don't allow me to come back and give you another list of five or six things." You have to have some degree of self-control, and you're really helping out everybody here, guys. You're helping yourself and your former spouse because you're going to spend less money on the legal process and you're going to have less stress. You're helping your attorney because he or she's going to know exactly what your goals are.
Pete Wright:
Well, I want to interrupt you because I think you buried the hidden gem of vulnerability in your opening statement that I've really been just sort of stewing on, which I think applies here, and I want to get both of your thoughts on this. It's that cloud of divorce, right? When you're talking about the circumstances under which I am emotionally compromised and don't know it, it feels like that's the thing that's going to fuel you to go back on your word later is I know we had this agreement, but I'm not in my right mind, so I'm going to go ahead and fight about every single thing I can possibly consider to fight about again because I'm not finished going through the cloud of divorce. I'm curious if you could reflect on that. How do you see the other side of it?
Andy Heller:
My comment is I got nothing to add because you said it perfectly. I think that's exactly the problem, ladies and gentlemen. One of the first things I say in my book is that, ladies and gentlemen, we are not able to make the optimal decisions because of all the drama percolated in our life. Even if you have a divorce that's not really contested and you're able to communicate with your spouse at the time, you're still worried about splitting up into a two household environment and taking on roles that he or she used to handle by yourself, so you are still experiencing stress even if you're not really fighting. You've got to recognize this, become conscious of this. This is why one of the first chapters is go to your attorney and force yourself to write down two or three things that are important to you, you arm your attorney with these things, and you do not go back. I think the solution to the emotional being emotionally compromised, Pete, is being aware that you're emotionally compromised so you can take steps that will suppress this as much as possible.
Seth Nelson:
Andy, just chime in here along with that thought that you have. When you're emotional, things tend to take on a bigger meaning than they should.
Andy Heller:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
That extra overnight, that day, that holiday, that whatever the case may be, "I want to keep the house," or, "It's more important for me to have X in the finances than Y," becomes just magnified. I cannot even tell you how many people have said, "I want to fight for this house, Seth. I want to fight for the house," whether they have children or not, and we fight for the house and we're successful, and I see them two years later and they sold the house.
Andy Heller:
That's fog of divorce.
Seth Nelson:
There's a lot of insecurity when it comes to divorce. You're starting a whole new phase of your life that you never thought you'd be in, or even if you kind of did, it's still new and so you grab onto life rafts and something to keep you afloat, and sometimes that's the familiar.
Andy Heller:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
It's the house. I can get up in the middle of the night. I can get to the bathroom without tripping.
Andy Heller:
Yep. There's one more nugget I want to add around taking a high road and giving your attorney two or three really important goals. The other one is approach to divorce, everybody, like a marathon and not a sprint. I'll give you a great example. I also interviewed a bunch of divorcees who went through toxic divorces but landed in a good place. We can see what they did, what they would change. In this one example, you have a couple who are divorcing. It was a traditional old-fashioned marriage where you had a stay at home mom, who was a great mom, and a dad who worked, the breadwinner, and he traveled, but he was a super dad, very involved in the kids' lives, but the involvement was very uneven. For example, he would come back from a trip and tell his wife, "You check out for the weekend. I'm going to be super dad," and gives her a break.
Now, in divorce, you've got to make some accommodations. When they were splitting up, this guy was deserving of 50% custody, but there were two challenges. The first challenge is they recognized collectively that the children were used to being alone with mom when the dad traveled, but being alone with dad would be a new phenomenon for them. The second point is that travel was a part of his business, so he needed some time to adjust his business so his business didn't suffer and he can maintain his financial commitments as part of the divorce. What did they agree to? They started with a scaled custodial calendar where, out of the gate, he got about 25%, and with a certain schedule within up to a year and a half, he got his 50%, and the increases came once the children's therapist said, "Hey, kids are doing okay."
Seth Nelson:
Andy, on this, check your local jurisdiction because what you just described, a judge could not order in Florida. You don't have a crystal bar on what's in the best interest of the child a year and a half from now or six months from now, but a judge can sign off on a plan if the parents say, "Yeah, we will move from phase one to phase two on date certain." They're not allowed to do what Andy said, which was based on what a third party, even if it's a professional, what the mental health professional does, so really check your local jurisdiction on those specifics, but the concept broadly stated is let's be flexible here. Let's not get tied into our positions. We are all going through an adjustment, and Pete, we've talked about this, the kids are going to go home to two different homes and sleep in two different beds with two different types of mattresses and pillows. That just seems different to them even if we worked with Jamie Finley, our interior designer, that says, "Get the same mattress and pillow. Make them feel they're in their bed."
Pete Wright:
Yeah, don't give them an excuse to pick a favorite because eventually once they say, "Well, I like sleeping at dad's house because the bed's better," that's just another reason to pick a side kind of a thing.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, exactly.
Pete Wright:
Actually, it sounds totally sane though, so I need a clarification, Seth. Just because a judge can't order it, the divorcing parties, let's assume grace in this case, and both divorcing parties have said, "We agree on the advice of this child psychologist and we are going to agree with that and build this 25%, 35%, 45%, 50% plan." As long as they agree and it's written up and agreed on by their attorneys, the judge could sign that, but it's just not enforceable.
Seth Nelson:
No, it's a little more nuanced, so I want to make sure I explain it correctly.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Parents go talk to a child psychologist. Child psychologist says with your child, "Here's a plan that I think is going to work. Do this for three months, do another thing for three months, and you grow it, and there's date certains." They submit a plan to the judge, "Judge, here's date certains. We're going to go from X to Y on these certain dates." The judge can sign off on that.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
The judge couldn't order that in a trial. If dad says, "I want 50/50, Judge, but I get the kids are going to be in an adjustment period, so every three months, I want to increase my time," the judge does not have the authority to order that. The judge can sign off on an agreement. The nuance is, and this is what Andy said, if the agreement and I'm saying, hey, judges can sign off on agreements, but they cannot sign off on this agreement in Florida, "Judge, every three months we're going go back to the psychologist and see what they say, and whatever they say, we're going to do," that is the judge giving over the power to make the decision on what's in the best interest of the child to a third party not allowed to do it.
Andy Heller:
Yeah. Let me just clarify. We've been on the same page the whole time. In the book, I'm not given at any point legal advice. This is about how the co-parenting plan should be structured and it's about where your energy needs to be. As a divorcee, I've got to come up with a structure that is in the best interest of my children, and the underlying message I was communicating here, in divorce, one of the mistakes people tend to make is they overfocus on what they get the day the document is signed. That is a mistake. You want to understand how you want your life to look one or two years down the road, make the decisions that are in the best interest of your children, and that drives what goes into the co-parenting plan. I find impatience and what people get out of the gate tends to result in some mistakes, and that's really not where you want to be focusing on. It's okay to stage some changes, and that's natural. Your children are getting older, you both spouses are adjusting to living life on their own, it's an adjustment period, guys.
Seth Nelson:
If you think that, if you have children, that you are not going to have to ask a favor from your former spouse down the road to make an adjustment to the schedule, you're just kidding yourself.
Andy Heller:
Yep.
Seth Nelson:
Now, this also applies to people who are getting divorce without children because you will get so focused on specific assets or debts that you think either justify why you should get them or explain why the other person should be stuck with that debt because, "I never knew it, I told them not to do it, they were just waste of money." That too can get very positional, and what no one ever focuses on when they're talking about dividing up the pie until the attorney brings it to their attention usually is how much is it going to cost to fight about this? I spend a lot of time on the front end. When a client or another side takes a position, I try to put a dollar value on that position. "I want this 401(k) to be mine and that one to be theirs." Okay, well how much are we arguing about and can we bridge that gap?
Andy Heller:
I love it. Seth, you kind of opened the door to a great story. If I could pivot there, you guys want to hear a great story?
Seth Nelson:
Sure. That's Pete's favorite word is pivot so I'm glad you rung that bell before him today.
Andy Heller:
I'm saying instead of Pete, so you mentioned how you're going to need favors, one of the smartest things that I got told when I signed my own divorce is look at the MSA as a framework. Don't look at it as a rigid document that can't be adjusted because you're going to need changes. Part of my impetus to write in this book is I realized I wasn't making really good decisions and I didn't realize it. My book is not about my own divorce, okay? It's about how to get divorced and take the high road, do it in the right way for your children and for yourself and for your former spouse, but there was a story that was my own that I actually did include in the book in third person, and this is grief. This was what prompted me to write the book, everybody.
I don't mind saying I got my own therapist and she did a lot of work with divorced men, and she was amazing. She was a great sounding board for me. With my ex, I'd asked for a custodial switch, the calendar switch, and the answer was no. I felt my request was reasonable and there was no reason to say no. Shortly thereafter, I was asked to make a switch. I said, "I'll get back to you." I went into my appointment with my therapist. I said, "Okay, guess what happened? She's now asking me for this switch. I'm going to go back and say, 'I'll give you the time that you want, but you give me the time that I want.' That seems fair to me. That seems rational." My therapist said, "No, Andy, you're not going to do that. You're going to do the opposite. You're going to go back and you're going to say yes to any request your ex has that you can accommodate without much difficulty and that's in your best interest of your children. You're not going to link requests," which was my underlying gut instinct to do.
I would, "But," she said, "Stop your buts. You're going to continue to do this. Now, one of the two things will happen. She'll dig her heels in and still continue to be difficult, or within a year and a half, mark my word with all probability, you're going to notice the change and she's going to begin saying yes to your request." Ladies and gentlemen, my therapist was wrong. It took six months. I was absolutely floored. I said, "Our situation can never improve," but I had already said yes, by that time, four or five requests without getting change and expected anything on the other side, and I started to hear yeses on the other end. This was why I wrote the book. After that, I'm like, "Oh, my God, I had this moment." I could not believe how wrong my instincts were and I needed somebody in my ear smarter than me who's seen a bunch of these divorces to say, "No. This is the right path for you. This is how you want to handle this situation."
Seth Nelson:
What you did is you focused on your kid on each individual request. It had nothing to do with your former spouse. That's where people get sidetracked. "I always feel like they're winning. I'm just caving to them all the time." That becomes the mantra as opposed to, "But my kid got to go to Disney World with his friends."
Andy Heller:
Yeah, exactly. One of the things that I've tried to do with this book, guys, is to write a series of strategies and counsel that you can take unilaterally without expecting anything on the other side, but yet are designed to promote a change in behavior on the other side, and that's a great example. After a while when you're always saying yes, if it's in your children's interest, most people, not all, but most people will begin to adjust, but six months later, you have that custodial calendar and arrangement, and you're co-parenting in your children's best interest.
Pete Wright:
I love it. It's a constant reminder to me because it goes back to the, well, I called it the fog of divorce already, but you're describing something that's sort of that lingering fog of divorce that happens years after the MSA was signed and you're still finding yourself having this instinct to somehow tie otherwise disconnected behaviors together. I think that's something that we learn in parenting class. If you want your kid to change their sheets, but they also want a snack, and those two things are completely unrelated, you can't hold the snack hostage for them to change your seat sheets. If you're going to discipline a dog who's peeing on the rug, you've got to figure out how to show the dog that that's inappropriate immediately because those two things have to stay related. Why doesn't that naturally connect for us in terms of civil human behavior with our exes? I think that's just a really interesting observation from your therapist, making that connections important.
Seth Nelson:
One of the ways to do that, Pete, it doesn't always work because you really have to work hard to reframe the question, but pretend your kid's asking you.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Andy Heller:
Yeah. I love it.
Seth Nelson:
Pretend your kid's asking, "Hey, my grandmother's in town, dad, on mom's side. I was wondering if I could just stay the weekend over there." That's a whole lot different than the former spouse saying, "My mom's coming in town. You know the one you fucking hate? Yeah, that one. Is it okay if our child on your time comes over and hangs out with my mother, who you also still blame for getting divorced because she never liked you to begin with?"
Pete Wright:
Right. "Oh, your mother's visiting from the hellfire club in the ninth circle? Yeah, sure. I'm glad to just give up my time for that beast." No, I totally get it. The voice completely changes when you re-contextualize it as value of the kid.
Seth Nelson:
Just what you said when you were playing the role of the father, and you said, "My time," if I could get my clients to stop saying my time.
Pete Wright:
Noted.
Seth Nelson:
It's your kid's time to be with you. It's not your time. Everyone's like, "Well, I know what you're saying, Seth, but it's the..." No. We are dividing your child's time, and there will come a time when it's the weekend your child is scheduled to spend with you and that child is barely going to see you. Why? Because they're 16 and they've got a car. It goes fast, so don't spend your time arguing about this stuff from ages four to 16. You got 12 years.
Andy Heller:
That's brilliant. Yeah. I'm personally-
Seth Nelson:
Oh, we can end the show. Called me, said that was brilliant, we can end the show right now.
Pete Wright:
Oh, yeah. Right. We need to cut it. That was it. That was the magic word, "That's brilliant."
Seth Nelson:
Thank you, Andy. All right, Pete, wrap it up.
Andy Heller:
I was just going to say, Seth, that that's brilliant in many ways, but I'm living that world myself as a divorcee. My daughter's 18 and my son's 16, and I actually have to sit down with my kids and say, "Dad's home. It is not a hotel. My time with you is running short and your time with me is running short, so your weekend's with me until you graduate. You can be with your friends, but you got to carve three or four hours for good old dad," and that'd be no different if we were still married. You want the kids to spend some time with you, but it is a challenge. As they get older, you've got this really, really short window, everybody.
The faster you can reach and accommodate a co-parenting arrangement, honestly, everybody wins. Your kids win. That's the most important thing. You're going to win and your ex is going to win. If you and your ex are able to get along better, your stress is going to go down, and whatever new path you've got with life, you're going to find it easier. In my own world, one of the most fascinating things happened, I was probably spending a couple of hours a day in contentious emails and texts with my ex, and talking to attorneys and talking to therapists and-
Seth Nelson:
Sounds like fun.
Andy Heller:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
Or Monday, right, Seth?
Seth Nelson:
Right.
Andy Heller:
Around the two-year point, Seth, I had a recalibration and I started to implement some of these tips that I wrote about in this book, and that two hours went down to 10 minutes. Guess what? I'm an entrepreneur. My business took off like a rocket. Also, I met this amazing woman and I've remarried. Okay?
Seth Nelson:
Then your business took a dive. No, I'm sure.
Pete Wright:
Dark punchline, Andy. Dark punchline.
Andy Heller:
We just lost an hour offline. You guys are tracking me off. No, but without being corny, guys, if you don't come to a place where you can... You don't have to be happy with everything, but you can compartmentalize and manage this better, the other parts of your life, you can't go on to that next step. That's the point that I'm making. One of the things about books like mine, podcasts like this, great therapists, is they're all designed to get you to that point where co-parenting is easier so you can start that next phase of your life because the other phase is over and you can't be spending hours on it. It's just not healthy.
Pete Wright:
There's one more concept that I want you to just talk about that is directly from the book as I was reading the book and I landed on this one. I spend most of my day trying to find metaphor that actually helps me live my life better, and you tell a story of a couple in, I think it's part four, where they're talking about the value of the rubber suit. In so far as me just mentioning rubber suit, I know it gives Seth the idea for so many jokes that his brain's going to light on fire. I would like to tell you with all sincerity, what is the role of the rubber suit? Because I think it's really important. Then we'll wrap it up.
Andy Heller:
I have no doubt that, at some point, Seth's going to have a great joke on this, but what I'm going to say before I answer your question, Pete, is this is one of those chapters I wrote that I'm like, "Should I put it in?" Kind of sounds hokey, but I cannot believe nobody asked me about chapters more than the rubber suit. In this chapter, we talk about a father and the kids stayed in the mom's home. He needed three or four months before he got his own place so he was staying with friends. A lot of his parenting times were in the home of his ex or ex to be. He would go in there and it would be really, really uncomfortable. The other thing about this, in many of these divorces, you're being verbally abusive and you don't even realize it. Oftentimes, it's both parties. He was going in there, and he felt he was being criticized, he felt his parenting was being criticized, and it was just a very difficult arrangement for him, but he knew it was unavoidable for a period of time so he played a game with himself.
He put on a fictitious rubber suit before he walked into the space, and all these comments would bounce off and he's like, "Let's see if I can get a worse criticism than last time and I'm not going to respond to it." By imagining and pretending like he had a rubber suit on, all the comments bounced off him and he was not allowed to engage. This was a fantastic coping strategy for him. The point of this chapter is whether you take the hokey rubber suit or come up with your own mechanism, most of you will need a coping mechanism of some type where your children are not feeling it and also your own mental health is being protected until you can reach a point where there's not so many of these incidents, and some of the anger and angst just abase over time as it will.
Pete Wright:
I like that so much because, again, the whole metaphor of knowing that you're in an adversarial situation, whether you're at home, whether you're dealing with a deteriorating relationship, whether you're working with lawyers, whether you're in court, whatever it is, being able to put on this sort of mental model as armor is a useful practice. It is a useful practice for me to imagine, and I think it's another one of those useful conceits in the book as you talk about these folks.
Andy Heller:
It's a fabulous strategy and it just recognizes that... Your words are actually better than mine. It's an adversarial situation. For the time that it remains an adversarial situation, you can't go in there naked. You've got to have a coping strategy in advance whether it's a rubber suit or something different.
Seth Nelson:
Well, this applies to the lawyers when they're arguing the case. Some take it personally. Just last week, an attorney was attacking me personally and I just said, "I'm rubber. You're glue. What you say bounces off me and sticks to you."
Andy Heller:
I love it.
Pete Wright:
Who's the judge, man? Who's the judge when that happened?
Seth Nelson:
I did not charge my client a 0.1 for that. It was free of charge.
Pete Wright:
Andy, thank you so much, man, for hanging out with us and teaching us about the book a little bit. Where do you want to point people to learn more about it? We've got links for the show notes here.
Andy Heller:
Fantastic. Well, the book, guys, just go to Amazon, Take the High Road: Divorce with Compassion for Yourself and Your Family. I'd love a great review if my book helps you. I have a website, Pete, www.takethehighroaddivorce.com.
Pete Wright:
Outstanding. Andy Heller, thank you so much for hanging out with us. Seth, you did all right. You did all right.
Seth Nelson:
Not bad for a short Jewish bald podcaster who happens to be a lawyer for his day job.
Pete Wright:
Also practice law. Thank you, everybody, for hanging out with us, too. We really appreciate you downloading and listening to this show. Don't forget, if you have a question, head over to howtosplitatoaster.com. There's a button, it says, "Submit a question," and that will come straight to us where we'll throw it at Seth and we'll have him hit it right out of the park as always. On behalf of Andy Heller and Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney, I'm Pete Wright, and we'll catch you right here next week on How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
