How Does Rover Handle Visitation? A Conversation with Pet Custody Mediator Karis Nafte
Do Dogs Need Visitation After a Divorce?
Listener favorite Karis Nafte is back! In this episode, she’s talking to Seth and Pete about the challenges of sorting out visitation when it comes to the family pet. Some dogs can handle it, others cant. There’s also the factor of how much excitement the ex brings every time they visit. Are they playing ‘Disney Dad’ but with the dog? That can lead to stress and anxiety in your dog. How about different breeds? Different ages? What about mixes? We dig into a lot of factors that could affect how well your canine handles visitation rights. The bottom line, however? You really have to think about what’s best for the dog which usually is letting it stay with just one person.
About Karis
Born in Oregon, Karis started training dogs professionally in 1996. Where, in addition to teaching puppy and obedience classes she worked at the very first doggy daycare in Portland. She has hugely varied background in professional animal work; obedience, agility, aggressive dogs, shelter work, flyball, and movie work with animals.
In 2005 Karis came to South Africa on a vacation, fell in love with the country, and decided to stay put. She lives there with her husband, daughter, 3 cats and 4 dogs.
Known for her humane and effective training and behavior solutions, Karis is a nationally known and well-respected dog behavior expert, regularly appearing on TV and radio interviews. Her training school, Happy Dogs, offers 60 plus classes per month. She is a judge for the South African Dog Agility Association, and a licensed animal wrangler for the film industry.
After recognizing the need for ‘dog centered mediation’ during divorce, Karis became an internationally accredited family mediator. Now, she combines her wealth of experience of dogs and family pets with mediation to help her clients make the best decision for their dog’s long-term wellbeing.
Her goal is to help her clients see the dogs not as weapons or leverage against their ex, nor as human children, but as the individuals they are with their own doggy needs. She collaborates with mediators and attorneys worldwide as well as offering regular webinars to educate divorce professionals about pets and divorce.
Links & Notes
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How To Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from True Story FM. Today, does your toaster really care about your visitation schedule?
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everyone. I'm Seth Nelson, and as always, I'm here with my good friend Pete Wright, and we're joined today by Karis Nafte, Toaster podcast MVP and guest with some of the highest download counts in our show's history. Karis is a pet custody mediator and a certified dog behavior consultant from South Africa. In her work, she combines her wealth of experience of dogs and family pets with mediation to help her clients make the best decisions for their pet's wellbeing. Karis, welcome back to the Toaster.
Karis Nafte:
Thank you so much Seth. I'm really happy to be back. This is fabulous.
Pete Wright:
I don't know how to start this conversation because in our pre-show, Karis was telling us about how she trained cheetahs to walk on a leash, and I don't think many of our couples in our audience who are going through a divorce process are going to be dealing with cheetahs, but it's now all I can think about.
Karis Nafte:
Well, you know, you never know Pete. Don't limit people's lives and their imaginations, but let's hope-
Pete Wright:
Animals in the divorce process are metaphorical cheetahs.
Karis Nafte:
Nobody should have cheetahs for a pet. Definitely not.
Pete Wright:
Don't do that.
Seth Nelson:
Pete.
Pete Wright:
Yeah?
Seth Nelson:
You're not going to believe this.
Pete Wright:
What? Oh no.
Seth Nelson:
I just got my first divorce case dealing with the circus.
Pete Wright:
Are you serious?
Seth Nelson:
No, not at all.
Pete Wright:
Okay. It's like that's not actually beyond you. And also you're in Florida [inaudible 00:01:50] jurisdiction, but I imagine maybe you come with gator problems. I don't know.
Seth Nelson:
Who knows? But I was going to tell you, we were about to divide up some elephants, so not cheetahs.
Pete Wright:
Hey, so last time you were here, we were talking all about pets, pets going through the divorce process, and that is, as Seth mentioned in our intro, one of our most downloaded podcasts. You are truly an MVP of this show. We're so glad to have you back Karis. This time, we're following up with conversation one, Seth has a problem and we're going to talk about Seth's problem, one of Seth's problems. Let me be very specific.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. I have many problems.
Pete Wright:
Many problems. We're talking about one that is pet related. And two, we're going to talk about visitation. There are a lot of things that people don't understand about pet's reactions and relationships with visitations in splitting up. So we're going to be talking about those two things. Seth, do you want to kick us off with your very challenging problem?
Seth Nelson:
My problem actually relates to everything we're going to talk about, and so that's the only reason I'm mentioning it. And this is the reverse of getting divorced, I am engaged to be married.
Karis Nafte:
Congratulations.
Pete Wright:
Yay.
Seth Nelson:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
There was much rejoicing.
Seth Nelson:
Yes, this is the second woman that was dumb enough to say that they would marry me, so it's really amazing what the universe will provide. But here's my problem. I have two miniature dachshunds, both of which shed, one's a long hair, one's a short hair. As best as I've tried, they do use their facilities in the house. I have pee pads. They don't always make it on there. And my fiancé loves dogs, but we have allergy problems, we have shedding problems, and we have not using the facilities outside problems, all of which are legitimate problems in my mind. I'm not being judgemental in a negative way, I get it.
But these dogs have a dog sitter that they go to regularly. For weekends if I have to work a lot and my son is at his mom's, I don't think it's fair for them just to be home all weekend when I'm at the office. So they go there, there are other dogs there, they love them. And when we go on trips or if I'm on vacation or if I have to stay at my father's house because he's elderly and I'm caring for him, so they go over there a lot and they go crazy when she comes around. They love her. And in fact, the reason I got the second dog is because the first dog went over there and had such a good time, he came home depressed and he needed a friend.
So I lay that out in a kind of long way because I think that's going to cover a lot of what we're going to talk about today is does my dog miss me if they stay over there? What about visitation? What happens when dogs go back and forth between different locations with different "owners" or different people? And that's kind of to start off the conversation on all of that.
Karis Nafte:
And please, can I teach your dogs not to pee in the house and not to shed, right? Do you fail to mention that?
Seth Nelson:
Well, Karis, you're brilliant. I think you could probably do the pee in the house. I don't know about the shedding issue.
Karis Nafte:
No, no. The shedding issue, sorry, nothing I can do about that one. And the pee in the house I can do, but it's probably not the right topic for this particular podcast, so we'll have a conversation about that after.
The thing listeners should know though is that dog behavior is fixable or changeable maybe is a better word because a lot of times, for example, with toilet training, it's a very common thing that dogs haven't quite hit it on the head about toilet training and owners just accept it. Or things like separation anxiety or dogs that don't like to be left alone or dogs who jump on visitors, anything. And people often just go, "Oh, my dog has this thing. It's going to always have this thing." And that's not the case. In the same way that I can't fix my car, but if my car has a problem, instead of saying, "Well, that's just my car," I'm going to go to a professional who knows more about cars.
And it's the same with dog psychology. You really can improve on almost anything that your dog is doing. I don't like the word fix because they're not broken, but you can really improve it. So that's a long-winded way of saying I will fix your dog's toilet habit and you can tell your listeners later, "Wow, it really worked." But in terms of visitations, which is what we're talking about, yeah I'm excited to get into it because this is one of the recently ... I suppose this is the case for everybody's work. There's sort of themes that happen in waves and the theme that I have had for the last many, many months is visitations and, "How do we do it? Should we, shouldn't we? And we've been doing visitations, it's gone really, really bad now. How can we go forward with it? And what is the right way to do it?"
So I thought it's such an interesting, helpful topic for people to listen to because people don't know what to do about, "Can I visit my dog? I've just broken up with my girlfriend, I've just gotten divorced, whatever it is. Can I go and visit the dog?"
Pete Wright:
Which I think is a great question because if I recall the last time you were here, we were talking about the potential damage you can do to the dog to create this sort of split family life that pets don't handle that stuff well. So where do you start with that kind of conversation? How does this pick up from that foundation?
Karis Nafte:
So I think to start with, let's separate the concept of shared custody from a visitation. So in a shared custody scenario, that would be something similar to what people do with children like we each have the dog. I mean I helped a couple who'd separated who they're doing two weeks each with the dog to see how it goes. So call that a shared custody thing where both parties want to be in the dog's life, they want to be responsible for the dog. Now, I'll put as a caveat that this is not always good for dogs. So it can be very stressful for dogs to move between homes with their shared custody. It is not ideal and it shouldn't be the first option that people choose. It shouldn't be like, "Well, it's okay. I don't have to say goodbye to Rover. We'll just do shared custody."
In an ideal world, it's generally better for most dogs not to do shared custody. So let me just put that down. But some dogs can be okay with it. It depends on the dog, it depends on the breed and everything. What I want to focus on today is visiting the dog. So let's say I've gotten a divorce from my husband and I'm keeping the dog, can my ex-husband come and just take the dog for a walk? Can he just visit the dog when he feels like it? What does that do to the dog who lives with one person? So that's sort of the difference between visiting the dog just when you want to and having a set custody sort of schedule. There's a lot of ways to approach this sort of topic, and there's the human side and then there's the dog side. And my work unashamedly is always about prioritizing the dog's wellbeing.
Seth Nelson:
That's why so many people love working with you and why you have the best downloads we've ever had. It's all about the dog.
Pete Wright:
It's all about the dog.
Karis Nafte:
It's all about the dog. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
I think this is really important because you start talking about is it good for the dog? I mean, and I'll speak for myself, I do an awful lot of anthropomorphizing my dog, right? I'm sure my dog misses me when I'm gone. I'm pretty sure my dog doesn't have a very good short-term memory and I can go take the garbage out and come back and he thinks I've been gone for 15 years. So I think I'm overthinking the level of emotional attachment the dog has to me. I don't know. But I think that isn't where it starts, all of this visitation, all of this separation, I'm putting emotions on the dog that the dog doesn't feel?
Karis Nafte:
Yep. So the overarching theme of the work I do besides what's good for the dog, the other side of that is dogs are not children. We cannot give them children emotions. We cannot treat them the same as children because they are not. It stresses dogs out to be given that kind of emotional weight. So to answer your question Pete about does my dog miss me, I'll put that in a different context for you. Dogs love reunions. They love saying hi. They love it. It's the highlight of their day to say, "Hello, where have you been?" They want to smell you. By smelling you, they know what you've been eating and who you've been hanging out with and what you've been doing. And dogs are compulsive greeters. They love to say hello. It is one of their most natural, fundamental social things they do.
But you can't equate the level of enthusiasm of the greeting, that doesn't mean they're sad when you're not there. It's just that the greeting is such a joy. But that is precisely what happens with people is they would put a human reaction on that kind of greeting rather than understanding how dogs are. They truly love to greet and be excited. It doesn't mean that they miss you.
Pete Wright:
Well, I just have a followup question about that because that absolutely makes sense. My dog is a hooligan with greetings. How do you then explain the dog's behavior around what he's doing when we leave the house, right? I mean our dog will howl, he'll sit on his bed and just kind of howl. And of course we're ascribing that to loneliness. "Oh, he's so lonely without us." I'm not sure that that's hearing you talk about it.
Seth Nelson:
[inaudible 00:11:39] he's so happy you left.
Pete Wright:
God, that's probably more accurate. I don't know. Karis, what can you say to make Seth wrong about that?
Karis Nafte:
Okay, so there's a lot of reasons dogs will vocalize when they're left alone. We tend to think, now people sort of know the term of separation anxiety and they'll throw that around and say, "Oh, my dog has separation anxiety." And most dogs don't have separation anxiety. If they do have separation anxiety, this is a sidebar, if it's serious, one of the ways it's serious is that the dog is still stressed after you get home. It means their nervous system is overloaded. It's like having a panic attack that they cannot stop. So even when the owners return, the dog will still be unable to drink or eat. They'll be panting, they'll be shaking like some dogs do when there's thunder and stuff. I mean the short answer to the question, that's my first clue about separation anxiety is what's the return like?
So for your dog, he's got a habit. It's fun to howl, it's fun to bark, it's also fun to chew. So a lot of dogs do those things precisely because mom and dad are not around to stop them. But it could just also be part of dogs also, they very much get into habits. So for him, you leaving could very much signal him to sing a song. So I mean I'm not just saying he's singing for fun.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, we were so close on that Pete. I was so happy for a minute.
Karis Nafte:
So Pete, this is what you do, okay? Free tip.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Karis Nafte:
Before you leave, I want you to take ... Does your dog take some dry pellets or something? Not wet food, but something dry that he eats?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, sure.
Karis Nafte:
And scatter it on the floor like you'd feed a chicken and walk out the door. It's called scatter feeding.
Pete Wright:
Oh, give him something to do. Okay.
Karis Nafte:
Give him something to do and it'll take him so long to sniff out each little piece of food that by the time he's done, he'll just curl up and go to sleep.
Pete Wright:
That's amazing. Okay.
Seth Nelson:
And it's funny Pete, because you were saying that we subscribe these behaviors when you get home and the dog is jumping up and down, shaking his, doing spins, and so excited to a human behavior like look how excited I am to see you. If I did that when my fiancé walked in the door, she would be like, "What is wrong with you?" So I don't think we can take that emotions or that behavior that dogs do because it's wonderful, it's cute, we all love it, but it's not really how humans greet each other.
Karis Nafte:
It isn't.
Seth Nelson:
Well, how does that relate then to visitations? Because now I'm thinking okay, the dog has a stable home and yet is going to different places. I mean are we just sort of building these new habits for the dogs to just have more hellos in their day? That sounds like that could be a good thing.
Karis Nafte:
Okay, so let's put this in context for what happens with dogs. And this is where a lot of my clients get confused. So if myself, okay, let's just say for this argument that Seth and I are getting married and then we got a divorce, okay? We had a dog. So if I keep the dog, and of course this dog knows Seth because it grew up with Seth, and I've had the dog for a few weeks, and the dog is fine. The dog's just hanging out, being the dog, our life is okay. Maybe he was confused. He hasn't seen Seth, and then Seth comes back to the house. The dog is going to be ecstatic. But the dog being ecstatic does not mean it's been spending the previous two weeks waiting for Seth to come home, but that's probably what Seth will think.
Seth Nelson:
Absolutely.
Karis Nafte:
And we like to think that because we want our dogs to want us and love us. And of course, if you feel guilty about the breakup and leaving the dog, your own sense of guilt is going to color how you feel when your dog is doing spins and circles and singing songs when you come home.
Pete Wright:
Also makes it easy to use the dog as leverage in difficult breakup, difficult divorce.
Karis Nafte:
Exactly, very much so. As a side note, as an example, I spent years and years teaching puppy school and training classes where I would get to know my clients and my dogs very, very well. And I'd play a big part in their life, especially at puppy school. And often at the dog park where I walk my dogs and different places, I'll have these dogs run up to me and it's like, "Oh, I know you. You were in puppy school four years ago," and the dog knows my voice, they know my smell, and they're over the moon to see me, but it's not like they've been missing me for the last four years. But the greeting kind of brings that out. But that's again, a sidebar, lots of sidebars.
So in my example of my fictional marriage with Seth and we've left the dog behind, this is the danger. When I say danger, I mean this is the danger to the dog's wellbeing. So Seth comes back after a few weeks, the dog is over the moon, and that greeting will of course be very, very exciting. And then Seth, in trying to be a nice guy, might say, "Okay Rover, we're going to do all of our favorite things. I'm going to give you the best food you ever eat. I'm going to take you to your most favorite place. We're going to do the most exciting stuff that I know you love more than anything, and then I'm going to drop you back with your mom." Now what that does, so then that leaves the dog going from its normal life where it's fine to sort of Christmas and Halloween and birthday all happening in one day for the dog. It's a really, really high energy, exciting day.
And then Seth leaves, okay? And then let's say Seth comes back after a few days or a couple of weeks, and the same pattern repeats itself. Seth arrives, and not only does the dog have the super exciting greeting, but also it has a super exciting day. And then mom's house becomes kind of boring in comparison. Now, if that pattern keeps happening in that the exciting person arrives kind of randomly for the dog, this is when I start to see dogs then they do get anxiety issues, then they start waiting at the door. Then they start looking for that car like, "Wait, maybe. Is this the day? Maybe he's coming. Maybe he's coming today. He came at this time last time."
And dogs, we could call them superstitious, but that's doing them a disservice. But dogs will connect events that happen in their mind for good or for bad. So if the ice cream man drove by the same day that Seth came the one time, the dog might hear the ice cream truck and think, "Oh wait, maybe that's a clue. Maybe that's the day that he's coming back." So that sort of dropping in for big excitement can lead the dog then to sitting by the door panicking a little bit and having anxiety stuff. That's the sort of thing I see quite a lot.
Pete Wright:
Sure sounds like a custody weekend that once again, all of these behaviors, you're treating the dog like a child.
Seth Nelson:
You just described Disney dad.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Yeah, you have a weekend that's a month of Christmas, all in one. And I guess in that regard, kids are kind of like dogs, right? They'll hear the ice cream truck and think dad's arriving in some cases.
Seth Nelson:
It's the whole thing.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
So on that Karis, that's the excitement stuff. But for example, I have these two little dogs at home. They get two walks a day by dog walkers, professional company. They come, I get pictures sent to me twice a day. Having a tough day at the office and I get a picture, it brightens my day a little. But that isn't super exciting, that's a walk. So is that different than what you just described?
Karis Nafte:
It is because it happens every day and it's totally predictable. And the dog walkers are not overly emotional or crying or too excited when they pick up your dogs. We would hope not anyway.
Pete Wright:
Check your Ring doorbell camera Seth, you want to make sure they're not showing up bawling at the door every day.
Karis Nafte:
Bawling at the door. Or I mean let's be honest, and the dog walkers don't come and shout at you. I mean I know you're at work, but the other thing that can happen when the ex arrives is there's a fight or the energy is-
Seth Nelson:
That never happens, come on.
Pete Wright:
But the dogs pick up on that, huh?
Karis Nafte:
Of course. It's so stressful for them because they don't have any context. They don't know what's happening. So to go back Seth to the dog walkers, the dogs will be very happy to see the dog walkers. They'll love them. But because it's a daily thing and it's completely predictable and it's not out of the ordinary, that's just part of their routine and they're just fine with it. So in my example of a relationship, if the ex-partner came every day at 5:00 to walk the dog, you wouldn't have this issue. But who wants to live like that? Who wants their ex showing up at 5:00 every day? Nobody wants that.
Seth Nelson:
No. Do dogs have a sense of time?
Karis Nafte:
I don't know how to answer that. I mean in what sense?
Seth Nelson:
Well, my dogs, I always say they know what time it is because they know exactly when they're trying to get fed in the morning and the evening.
Karis Nafte:
Okay, yes. So in that sense, yes, when it comes to mealtime and walk time, they completely have a sense of time. If it's a sense of have I not seen someone for a day or a week, they do have a sense of that. You can see dogs behaving differently if someone's been away for a day or a month. So yeah, I mean they do have a sense of ... Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Because my son is a huge dog lover. Two dogs at my place, two dogs at his mom's place, and I think he's always coming and going a week at a time, pop in for a little bit on four different dogs. And my dogs don't seem overly depressed when he is not around.
Pete Wright:
But they still have that same joy when he comes over?
Seth Nelson:
Oh yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Karis Nafte:
They have that joy. But because it's such a routine that he comes and goes kind of when he does, and when he comes and he arrives, he's also probably pretty obviously happy to move between, but he's not overly excited, sad, or guilty or angry. He's just coming home. And the truth is for your dogs, as much as they love your son, dogs tend to honestly bond more with adults. It's a real fantasy that dogs will gravitate to the kids just because the dog is meant to belong to the kids. It doesn't really work that way. Some dogs do, but because the dogs are at your house and it's steady and they have good dog walkers and they have the routine and your son comes and goes all the time, that's like the tide and your dog is used to that. All the dogs are used to that.
Seth Nelson:
Pete, according to the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, about 10% of children live with a parent with an alcohol use disorder. Now I'm telling you, I do divorce work, been doing it a long time. Even to me, this is still an alarming statistic. And we want to try and keep kids safe.
Pete Wright:
That's right. We want to make sure that your children are safe with sober parents. We also want to help the child maintain a relationship with both parents and balancing this is one of the hardest things to navigate in custody litigation.
Seth Nelson:
It is a problem. Hearsay, out of court statement used to offer the proof of the matter asserted in the courtroom, what does that mean? It means he says I'm drinking all the time, she says I'm drinking all the time, but there's no proof. How do you prove that? Okay. And what happens is people will have allegation, they'll weaponize alcohol, and this situation becomes more challenging. So how does Soberlink help with that? They're still going to accuse you of it. That's not the point. The point is, you're going to have independent, immediate third party verification that shows you're not drinking when you have your kids, that you're focused on your kids. And that's what makes the difference when you're in court and it saves you time and money.
Pete Wright:
And that's what Soberlink is. It's a data collection device. Think of it like that. It looks like a breathalyzer, walks like a breathalyzer, but it's a little bit different than that. It's an internet connected breath device that has facial recognition built into it. They have two models. One is wi-fi, connects to your phone, wi-fi, Bluetooth connects to your phone, sends data that way. The other is cellular. In the United States, actually in North America, you don't even need to have a phone connected to it. You blow into it. It's going to send that data whether or not you are sober and safe to be with immediately to the people who need to know it the most, the fastest right away.
Seth Nelson:
And Pete, it works. It works in court. It's helped over a half million people prove their sobriety and provide peace of mind to the court, to the judge. This isn't to show at some levels to make your co-parent happy. That would be great if the co-parent believed it and said, "You know what? I really feel much better that at least I know they're sober for this day." Sometimes they just can't get out of their way. They can't even get themselves to say that. But if you have to go to court and a judge sees that when you've had your kids for six months every single day during that time that you've had them in that six-month period, week on, week off, whatever you're doing, you haven't been drinking, I don't see a court having an issue with that.
Pete Wright:
You can get started with Soberlink and get $50 off of your device by visiting soberlink.com/toaster. That's soberlink.com/toaster. Get started today, get yourself some good data and peace of mind. Keep your kids safe. Soberlink.com/toaster. Thank you to Soberlink for sponsoring this show.
So we've been talking about sort of general dog behavior. How do things like age of the dog and breed of the dog impact their ability to handle these kinds of ebbs and flows of visitations and excitement?
Karis Nafte:
So this is what's so fascinating about dogs is if you think of the different breeds of dogs, there are like a million different species. I mean it's amazing that they are all the same breeds. If you think of a chihuahua and you think of a bulldog and you think of a great Dane and you think of a golden retriever, we have bred dogs to do such different jobs since they've been domesticated. And in those different jobs we have given them ... Part of what comes with a dog's heritage is how strongly do they bond with one person? And there are some breeds of dogs that are genetically wired to bond with one person. And there are some breeds of dogs that are genetically wired to bond just with their house. It's their house that they're supposed to take care of. People listening must understand that I'm making a general statement here. Every situation obviously is unique. Everyone has to use common sense and get professional advice.
But as a general overarching theme, if a dog has been bred to be a guard dog or has been bred to work on a farm, they will want to bond more either with a particular person or with the property. So I'm talking about German shepherds, border collies, Australian cattle dogs, Australian shepherds, Belgian [inaudible 00:27:03]. Most of the dogs that are now we would call guard dogs were originally farm dogs and they were bred to take care of livestock and then that transferred sort of looking after property and becoming police dogs and all of that stuff. But the dogs that have a protective instinct, which you don't see in, for example, a golden retriever, bless them, or a dachshund. Okay, Seth?
Seth Nelson:
No, they're like, "Hey, let me show you where the silver is."
Pete Wright:
Yeah right. Pretty, but not too bright.
Seth Nelson:
"This is where he keeps the cash."
Karis Nafte:
Exactly. Exactly. "And take me with you," no I'm just kidding.
Seth Nelson:
Right, right. "Don't forget the dog treats, they're in this drawer."
Pete Wright:
"And then we'll go."
Karis Nafte:
So what you get when you get a dog that is bred to be protective, they have to have something to protect and they have to feel useful in that. They have to feel like they have a job. So those sorts of dogs are less likely to cope with moving around too much. They will generally find it more stressful and they're not as easygoing as other sorts of dogs.
Seth Nelson:
Because easygoing is not a trait you want in a guard dog.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Karis Nafte:
No, definitely. Definitely. They'll be fired. They don't know. So the intense dogs want to know what is their job and what are they doing. Whereas if you get dogs that are more very, very easygoing, like the world is just full of daisies and roses in their mind and they're fine, they can cope with change much easier. They can cope with emotions much easier. They can cope with stressed out people a lot more easier. So for example, you know don't see a lot of guard dogs that are also therapy dogs. You do see them, but they're rare. So the kind of dogs that could potentially be more of like a therapy dog can handle sort of visitations and people's emotions. They don't get as pulled by them.
If you look at the task ... Okay, there's two categories. So obviously crossbreed dogs, which we'll talk about that next. Dogs that are a purebred dog that you kind of know what the breeds are of the dog, if you look back at what was the original purpose of this dog, what was it bred for, that will give you a sense of what it is. So if you get dogs that are bred to hunt, which dachshunds were, they're little rat hunters. So hunting dogs, which are terriers. All the dogs that are bred to be gun dogs, which are Labrador, golden retrievers, flat coated retrievers, poodles, those kind of dogs that were bred to help people hunting things, a lot more easygoing than dogs that were bred to protect you from danger. So you can look back and see what was the task that they were bred for. They tend to be a lot more easygoing. Hound dogs, so dogs that were bred to use their nose or use their eyes, also tend to be more easygoing about things.
Now this is what's really tricky and important. If you have a dog, regardless of the breed, regardless of what its parents were like or its grandparents, if you have a dog who has had a stressful life, so puppyhood wasn't good, maybe they were abused, who knows, and anything traumatic has happened to a dog, that can make them a lot more fragile than-
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, that's the overarching theme, right?
Karis Nafte:
That's the overarching theme.
Seth Nelson:
We have two dogs. One is Theo, who we had since a puppy, the long hair miniature dachshund, very social greets people, we socialized him a lot Early. Penny we got when she was about 18 months old from a breeder who did not really care for her well and was malnourished. And when it's time to eat, she's jumping up and down and she scarfs her food down. I got one of those slow eating bowls and all that stuff. And Theo sits at his bowl and looks like a little kid that's not allowed to get up from a table because he doesn't want to eat. And he was used to just being able to graze all day, but I can't leave his bull down because Penny will steal from it.
But it's this whole different ... And she's more reserved on meeting people. She's gotten a lot better over the years she's been with us. But Theo will go up to anyone for the dog walkers, but it takes a little while, a couple times for her to get used to the new one. Same breed, different puppyhood.
Karis Nafte:
Exactly. And that's why when you're looking at this sort of thing, you have to look at your dog objectively to try to see if they can handle it. Now, I get some dogs I work with that are rescue dogs and I call them bombproof dogs. Nothing bothers them. It's like they've kind of been through hell and back. And I think almost people in a war, that's maybe a strange comparison, but you can go through a war and come out feeling like the world is not safe and you can go through and nothing bothers. When you get some of these wonderful crossbreed dogs, you're like, "Nothing bothers them, they're fine. They can go anywhere." And those kind of dogs can handle any sort of visitation sort of thing, no problem.
Now in terms of age, so if let's say there's a couple who ... Now, this is something I see quite often where if there's a relationship that is going a little rocky, people quickly think, "Let's get a puppy and see if it makes it better." And then lo and behold, it doesn't.
Seth Nelson:
Karis, I could write a book about how many people that are actively going through a divorce get a dog. I don't understand it.
Karis Nafte:
I don't either.
Pete Wright:
Well, isn't that the same behavior around like, "Our relationship's on the rocks, maybe we should have a child."
Karis Nafte:
Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, but this I think is different. Literally, one will be my client and they will go out and buy a dog. And I'm like, "What are you doing? You're about to separate homes." And they said, "Well, can't you come up with a visitation schedule for the dog?" I said, "No. Under Florida family law, it's personal property. One of you is going to get it." And if you listen to Karis, she'll tell you this is a bad idea too.
Karis Nafte:
It's such a bad idea. So if you have a young dog, so let's say you have, you've gotten a dog, definitely don't start the dog on this pattern, on this schedule that is not necessary. It's more about the people in that case, especially if you only had the dog a few months. I know you love it, but to think now that you need to see the dog whenever you feel like it for the next 10 years, it's just not the case. So if you have a young dog, make a clean break for everybody's sake. And if you have a very old dog, very elderly sweetheart, for the dog's sake, you don't need to also make life too exciting or too stressful for it. It's also kinder for the dog just to have a steady routine and kind of a steady life going forward.
Now, I think that what's important in this conversation we have to bring up now is what I just touched on, is the people side of it. So visitations, I mean like anything in divorce, it's layered and it's complicated, but a lot of the time people want to visit the dog, and I'm using my air quotes here, not because they want to visit the dog, but because they're trying to keep tabs on their ex, right Seth? I'm sure you've never experienced that before.
Seth Nelson:
Never. I have no idea what you're talking about. All the time. All the time Karis. They come over and it first starts, it's friendly, even if it's an amicable divorce, they split up, "Hey, we just want to go our separate ways and dropping the kids off and I used to live here." And so they come in the house and then the next thing you know the ex-spouse that's living in the house, he's looking around at the house to see what's going on. And then all of a sudden, there's a gym bag that is obviously belonging to a new person in her life, and now it's a problem. So now it's like, "No, stay on the porch. Don't come in. Well, now there's this new boundary that wasn't there before and that creates conflict. There's all sorts of stuff happening like that all the time.
Karis Nafte:
Absolutely. And it's such a common pattern. I don't think people are aware of it. I don't think they know that's why they're doing it because it's so much easier to think it's about the dog. So when I work with my clients I say, because like you say, people are often optimistic at the beginning. It's like, "Oh no, no, it's fine. We'll be friends. You can come and visit the dog whenever you want to." And then very often when there's a new relationship for one of them or something happens, that's suddenly when things go south. I had a client where they were all fine with the dog until the one partner got a promotion and obviously was suddenly making a lot more money, and that created a whole bunch of conflicts. So it can be anything.
Seth Nelson:
Dogs are very, very attuned to how much you make.
Karis Nafte:
They are, they want that Louis Vuitton collar guys.
Seth Nelson:
I mean everybody knows that Pete.
Pete Wright:
"What handbag do I want to be carried around in?", says the Pomeranian.
Karis Nafte:
You can't carry Pomeranians. They get too hot.
Pete Wright:
They do. Oh, I imagine. Okay.
Karis Nafte:
Yeah, because then you squish all their hair into them and they actually overheat. So you please don't carry Pomeranians. You can push them in a stroller, but don't squish their fur.
Pete Wright:
My joke would lead to a Pomeranian safety tip, that's the kind of good stuff that you bring to this show Karis. I have a question about what we can learn from breeds. Like you talk about mixed breeds and those sorts of things. I have a mixed breed rescue dog who I like to think he's bulletproof, he's amazing. We did the Embark DNA test just out of curiosity, and we got a cocker [inaudible 00:36:57] cocker spaniel, papillon, chihuahua small poodle. And he's amazing. But is there something that I can learn about how to treat and train him and how resilient he'll be in these kinds of situations based on mix, or is it pretty much dog identity is dog identity?
Karis Nafte:
So at that stage when it's such a crossbreed, no, you just kind of have to look at the dog, look at him who he is. And even if you had his sister or if your neighbor had his sister, they'd probably be quite different, especially when there's so much of a mix there. So you can just look at how does he handle change? Does he like visitors?
And one thing that's really helpful is to look at what does your dog do when you are stressed? Because doesn't matter if you're stressed about the dog or you're stressed about something else, dogs notice when we are stressed. They will either ignore it. They will try to appease you to make you feel better, so those are the dogs who come closer. They want to climb in your shirt and kiss you and tell you everything's fine. And that is one reaction to stress. And then you'll get the dogs who'll hide. They'll go and hide in the bathroom or they'll try to make themselves completely invisible. And those dogs have usually been treated badly, they've usually been treated badly by someone with that sort of energy going through them. So for the dogs, especially the ones who run away from conflict, visitations and things is likely to be hard on them because it's stressful for them. You don't want to do anything to your dog that's not fair on them.
Seth Nelson:
Karis, what I'm hearing is if you don't know what to do, you can't figure out your breed, you don't know about the visitation, don't do the custody back and forth. Leave the dog with one person, and that's probably going to be the best course of action. Is that right?
Karis Nafte:
That's the mic drop moment of the show. And it's hard to say it, but I'm willing to put myself out there to say it that in an ideal world for the dog, it is almost always better if the dog is just with one person. They can learn to accept other things. And for some dogs going back and forth is fine, but it's always a question can the dog handle it? So I will tell people, "We have to see if your dog can tolerate shared custody. We have to see if your dog can tolerate visitations." And the way to see if your dog is tolerating visitations is not how excited is he when the ex person arrives on the door, but what happens when they leave? How long does it take the dog to bounce back and just be happy in its life?
If every visitation brings several days of obvious depression from the dog or whatever you want to call it, then why do that to the dog? It's not really fair for them.
Pete Wright:
That's not fair. Yeah.
Karis Nafte:
It's not fair. And that's what people miss sometimes. So yes Seth, it's true that it's better for the dogs to just have one person. Like I said in the beginning, they're not children. They don't need to see their ex person. If you are going to do visitations, the best thing to do is have it be pretty regular, not frequent, but on a regular-ish schedule. So maybe once a week or once every two weeks you visit the dog. If it's random, if the agreement you make is, "Cool, well that's fine. You can just see the dog whenever you feel like it," then-
Seth Nelson:
Oh my God, I've heard that a million times.
Karis Nafte:
Yep. And you don't want to set yourself up for that as a person because you are setting yourself up for this ex has permission to just arrive on your doorstep whenever they want. And I know it's so tempting. This is the challenge, and I want people to take this away who are listening. The stress of a breakup, there's often just desire to keep the peace. Just like don't make any waves, be accommodating. And especially if one person is saying, "I want to keep the dog," and the other person says, "You can keep the dog, but I want to visit it," then there's, "Okay, that's fine. You can visit it. I want to keep it." And I understand that, but you got to fast forward six months or six years and do you really want that for yourself, not just for the dog, but do you want to set yourself up for that kind of routine? Most people do not.
Pete Wright:
That's I think one of those real awakenings to think that stability, going down that road to create stability in the breakup for the human part of the equation, creates instability for the dog that can be unhealthy. Wow. Karis as always, you're fantastic. Thank you. I feel like you could throw some food on the ground and I would eat it just because I'm so well trained.
Karis Nafte:
Just say the word Pete, what do you want, no problem.
Seth Nelson:
Pete, you know the next time I'm with you, I'm taking some fries and just chucking them on the ground.
Pete Wright:
And I'm going to be-
Karis Nafte:
You got to send a video guys, okay, otherwise I won't believe you. I need proof.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, that'll be the first TikTok is Pete being scatter fed by Seth.
Seth Nelson:
I didn't say I'd do it with ketchup. I'm not trying to make it all messy for you.
Pete Wright:
No, because that would be filthy. You're right. Of course. Yeah. You got to draw the line somewhere. Geez. Karis, what are you up to? Can you plug anything? What do you have to tell the people?
Karis Nafte:
Gosh, guys, I've been very busy all over the world. It's really great. I've been doing a lot of work in Australia and in England and America and all over the place, so it's really fascinating to see how universal all these things are. Dogs don't know what country they live in, they're all dogs, all kind of behave the same. So I'm teaching all over the world, I'm working all over the world, and I am almost finished with my first book. So just watch this space. I'm working, it is harder than I thought it would be I must say.
Seth Nelson:
Is it harder than teaching a cheetah to walk on a leash?
Pete Wright:
Oh, the leash.
Karis Nafte:
Yes, it is. It is harder than teaching a cheetah to walk on a leash. Teaching a cheetah to walk on a leash took a lot of patience and writing a book takes a lot more, how do I say it, discipline on myself. So yeah, it's a very different discipline. It's great. I've got a lot ... Yeah, so that's what I'm working on. That's mostly I'm doing in [inaudible 00:43:35]. Yeah, I'll send you guys a copy. You'll get the first copy, an autographed one.
Pete Wright:
Absolutely. And we count on you to come back and share it with our folks when the time is right.
Karis Nafte:
Awesome.
Pete Wright:
We have a question, Seth, this is a listener question. You know how to get that if you're listening and you think, "Hey, I want to be like this listener," just head over to Howtosplitatoaster.com, click the button, submit a question. You can be just like this listener, who requests to be anonymous.
"My divorce is finalized within the last six months, but my ex-husband who has addiction problems and currently been picked up by police three separate times and has currently been court remanded to a rehab center and faces a court date and most certain jail time, my question is how does child support work since it's looking that he won't be able to be employed anytime soon? Just to give you some facts. In the divorce decree I was granted sole in primary custody of my three kids and I'm currently paying all medical expenses for them along with housing, feeding, and all other necessities for them. His only responsibility was paying the monthly agreed upon child support amount. Thank you in advance for your time." Seth, what do you think?
Seth Nelson:
Check your local jurisdiction. Here's the thing. In Florida, I would argue in court that he should not get a reduction in his child support because what he did was of his own making. It's not that he got laid off from a job and he is no longer employed. He made a decision. That decision ended up in jail.
What the court might do is not make him pay obviously while he's in prison because he won't have the ability to pay, but that child support that is owed, I'm using round numbers, simple numbers here. I'm not saying this is your number. You have three kids a lot of the time, most of the time, all the time. Let's just say it was $100 a month for easy math. $100 a month in jail for a year. He comes out, owes you $1,200.
So in Florida, what I would do is right when he gets out I would say, "Judge, he's out. I want him to start paying again and I want him to pay the $100 a month going forward that he continues to owe. And for the $1,200 that he owes while he was locked up, I want him to pay $20 a month towards that 1,200 of back child support." And the reason I'm saying 20 is in Florida, the most you can get on a monthly basis is 20% of the standard child support that he currently owes. So that's why I used $100, 20% is $20. You get your 100 bucks plus the 20. Now, if he has assets or if he has cash in the bank and the $1,200 is sitting there, then I'm going to tell the judge. "He's got the money right there, I should get it now." It's only if he doesn't have some sort of asset that you can ... You're not going to have him sell a car that gets him to work.
Pete Wright:
So this is all in an effort to get whole against the entire $1,200?
Seth Nelson:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
That's the rationality there. So eventually-
Seth Nelson:
That's the rationality.
Pete Wright:
The rationale. So talk just a little bit about the reality of the expectation in this case because it seems like you've got somebody who has addiction problems and jail time. If you're sitting in this case, you can go to the judge all day long and say, "Hey, I want this plus the 20% and I want all of that," what happens when you run headlong into ability to pay issues?
Seth Nelson:
That's a great question because there's the real world that you're asking about and then there's the legal world. So there's one other thing that I do a lot and our whole team here at NLG does that a lot of family lawyers do not do, I don't know why. When he gets out and I say, "Judge, he owes the 1,200," I would ask for what's called a money judgment. And that's saying he owes it and there's special language that has to be put in the order in Florida, sometimes it's let execution stand. And if it's in there, then what that means is I don't have to go back to the judge to collect some of that money. Like the family law judge, I can go garnish his wages. I can go take money right out of his bank account through a court system, but that gives me a way and more arrows in my quiver to shoot at him to get that money. That is different than just going into family law court and saying, "Judge, make him pay."
Pete Wright:
Yeah, "Please ask him to write me a check," which may or may not clear.
Seth Nelson:
Right, exactly. Now in Florida, if you're behind on child support, the Department of Revenue will represent you for free. It's a long process, but they can suspend his driver's license. They can do other things. Now, family law judges can also do that, but the whole part of the Department of Revenue is they have lawyers that do nothing but child support enforcement, and it makes good public policy. How are you going to hire a lawyer necessarily to go after back child support when you're not getting the child support? The reason you're suing is because you need it, right? So look into that and for this anonymous listener or question asker, we really appreciate it. We know that our listeners are having the same questions that you just had or some of them have, and so we appreciate you bringing that to our attention so we can help others.
Pete Wright:
For sure. That is a great, great question. Thank you so much. Again, howtosplitatoaster.com, click on the submit a question. We'll get your question in from Seth right now. Karis Nafte, thank you so much for hanging out with us. Thank you everybody again for downloading the show. We'll catch you next week right here on How to Split A Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
