Divorce Across Borders: Handling Immigration While Untying the Knot with Tahmina Watson
Navigating the Intersection of Immigration and Divorce Law
Divorce is complicated enough, but what happens when immigration status enters the picture? This week, Seth and Pete aim to provide guidance on navigating this complex legal maze. They're joined by immigration law expert Tahmina Watson. She shares invaluable insights on the nuances of divorce and custody when immigration status plays a role.
Tahmina offers an in-depth look at key considerations for both family-based and employment-based immigration situations. We explore scenarios involving dependent visas, green cards, work visas, and more. She provides perspective on the challenges that crop up when immigration issues arise mid-divorce.
Key Themes Covered
Tahmina breaks down common pitfalls and negotiation tactics used when immigration status affects divorce outcomes. She offers advice on gathering proper documentation and how to avoid potential scams. Tahmina stresses the importance of letting your life guide your immigration status rather than the reverse.
Questions We Answer in This Episode
What questions should you ask your divorce lawyer about immigration concerns?
What should divorce lawyers ask clients to spot immigration issues?
Key Takeaways
Gather all relevant visa and immigration paperwork before meeting your divorce lawyer.
Be aware of the profound power imbalance immigration status can create in divorce.
Don't let immigration concerns dictate major life decisions like divorce.
Plus, we tackle another listener question! Rich describes his suspicion that his wife may be under the influence of a cult masquerading as a “social club.” Seth and Pete advise on warning signs to watch for and stress calling a lawyer sooner rather than later.
This episode delivers invaluable guidance on properly handling the immigration side of divorce. Tahmina provides wisdom that can help avoid major pitfalls at the intersection of family and immigration law.
Links & Notes
Got a question you want to ask on the show? Click here!
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How To Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. Today, what happens when your toaster is an import?
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everybody. I'm Seth Nelson. As always, I'm here with my good friend Pete Wright. Today we're talking about immigration. It's a complicated topic and it's easy to get lost in the maze of politics and business. But what happens when immigration hits families? Tahmina Watson has distinguished herself as a successful and committed specialist in U.S. immigration law. She has helped hundreds of businesses and families achieve their goals for working and living in the United States, and she joins us today to help us understand the complexities of divorce and parenting when immigration is involved. Tahmina, welcome to the Toaster.
Tahmina Watson:
Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to be here.
Pete Wright:
Tahmina, I have to tell you something. I'm going to be honest, real talk. This is a safe space. I came into this show this morning, I've been talking to Seth a little bit before you showed up, and I am super curious about this area of the law, right? It's a divorce podcast, we're talking about divorce and the implications of divorce on immigration, immigration on divorce, what it's like to be a parent, all that stuff is involved. And you know what Seth said? "Sometimes the law isn't that interesting." That was his response. I put it to you, please tell me the law is interesting in this area because I'm deeply curious about it.
Tahmina Watson:
To me, at least, the law is interesting and each fact pattern will make you pull your hair out because Seth isn't wrong. The law isn't interesting in many ways, but the fact patterns, but you have to get the law to see how it can fit your situation. And you are looking at it from an interesting angle, at least you're looking at immigration from an interesting angle of family law, because it's not one size fits all. It's not one situation that fits all. Are you in the country? Are you outside the country? Is it custody? Is it not custody? Is it international laws? There are just so many aspects to family law and its intersection with immigration that to me, it's very interesting just generally, but specifically when it comes to family law.
Seth Nelson:
So let me defend myself, counselor. Let me defend myself. I let you get through that whole answer. I did not interrupt, which is very difficult for me.
Tahmina Watson:
I appreciate that.
Seth Nelson:
I want to point out a couple things. First off, it did not escape me that you said there's all these fact patterns that will make you pull your hair out, and I am bald.
Pete Wright:
Yes. It didn't escape me either, Seth, just so you know.
Seth Nelson:
Yes. Oh, I know Mr. I always wear a hat, Pete Wright. Okay. And you guys cannot see here, but Tahmina has beautiful long hair. Okay? So the juxtaposition is just amazing, okay? So that's one part. And the other thing is, and I'm going to let Pete in on a little secret here, sometimes I'll say something's not interesting because I don't know anything about it.
Pete Wright:
Oh no, you always know about everything. I get it now. I get it.
Seth Nelson:
Not immigration law. And I have, I know people don't have this anymore, I'll be dating myself, on speed dial some local immigration lawyers that I refer cases to because I know that I don't know this and it can get very complicated and it can be very nuanced. And the fact patterns can be very nuanced and interesting and confusing and a lot of moving parts because you're in the country. Well, how are you here? You're here illegally or you're here legally. If you're here legally, under what visa? And there's going to be all these different things that you have to go through to figure it out. And how does that impact the family law case?
Pete Wright:
Well, and it's like a political hot potato too, right? What other area of law has so many vested political interests in it right now? I imagine that has to keep, as you say, Seth, these moving parts moving either fast or really slow.
Tahmina Watson:
Very much so. I mean I've written several books, but one of them is called Legal Heroes in the Trump Era. And I write that book because it was a compilation of stories of what lawyers did during that time. Now, a reminder that the law did not change. What changed were policies, and those policies impacted every aspect of procedure, practical matters, and even the way adjudications were happening. And what happens is immigration is a topic that can affect almost every aspect of life. What people don't understand is you are picking those apples from the grocery store during COVID when you're not allowed to go anywhere because an immigrant picked those apples for you. If you are looking at your phone, it's the network and the handset and what have you, all are being looked after by professionals who are high skilled immigrants.
If you think about the worker shortage going on right now with the economy and businesses suffering, immigration plays a part. But of course a lot of people when they think about immigration, it's about the border as well. And so there are just so many different aspects of immigration that you can't escape it. I speak with and I work with family lawyers, I work with lawyers like Seth, I work with lawyers in all different aspects because there's an intersection that happens quite often.
Pete Wright:
Let's start with a little bit of table setting, if you please. What are some of the common complications or cases that you run into at the intersection of complicated immigration, divorce?
Tahmina Watson:
Let's divide it by family-based immigration and employment-based immigration. And for your listeners, if they don't know about the immigration system, I'm just going to paint a quick picture. We have three separate big buckets as I describe them. Family-based, it's when you are sponsoring a spouse, a parent, a child, for a green card, and it can take as long as it can take depending on the processing and which country you're coming from. There are set visas for that, that's family based bucket. Then there's the employment based bucket. That's when an employer is sponsoring for a visa or a green card or you are sponsoring yourself for your own company. It's all about work. So that's that. And then the last bucket is really a catch all of the humanitarian refugees, diversity lottery, and so forth. So I'm going to focus on the family based and the employment based because the situations can be different.
In the family-based, often you are looking at U.S. citizen spouses that are sponsoring their spouses from different countries and eventually they come to the United States. Part of that sponsorship requires the U.S. citizen to prove that they are financially able to maintain that person. And when they do that, they have to sign a form called I-864. It is a financial support form, and that form is valid throughout the time that the person is a green card holder up until the time the non-citizen becomes a U.S. citizen. And it could be as little as three years for a spouse to become a citizen or it could be forever. People don't have to become citizens.
So that's one scenario, not scenario. That's a bucket. We can deep dive into that later. But then when somebody is, and I live in Seattle, so the word Microsoft rolls off my tongue, but if somebody is an employee of Microsoft or any company and they have a dependent spouse, that dependent work visa is wholly dependent on the principal person's working and their continued marriage.
Seth Nelson:
So let me make sure I get this straight. There's one where you're an American citizen, you're sponsoring your spouse, boom. Then there's one where you are not an American citizen, your company Microsoft brings you over, but you're allowed to bring your spouse. That still falls under family, or have we moved over to the other bucket of employment?
Tahmina Watson:
We have now moved over to employment based.
Seth Nelson:
So now I'm employment based. I'm a foreigner, not from the U.S. Microsoft hires me, they need new in-house counsel. Great job if you can get it, Pete.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Okay? Corporate counsel.
Pete Wright:
I'll start polishing up my CV.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, and I want to bring my spouse with me. That's what we're talking about now?
Tahmina Watson:
Correct.
Seth Nelson:
Got it. Okay, keep going.
Tahmina Watson:
Now, in the employment based, you do not have to have that 864 that I just mentioned.
Pete Wright:
The financial responsibility?
Tahmina Watson:
That's right, because it's presumed that you are married and there's a work visa involved. Now, each of these scenarios bring in different complexities In the immigration field. The call that I often will get is somebody who is an employee of a company, and often it's a dependent spouse, that's the person calling mostly saying, "Well, I'm going through a divorce now. My children are born here, they're U.S. citizens. If my visa is not renewed, I cannot stay here. What do we do?" Does that make sense?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, it makes sense, but it also just broke my heart a little bit because I have a feeling it doesn't sound like it has always a great answer.
Tahmina Watson:
It's not a great answer. And sometimes it is a power struggle between the couple and often the lawyers. So I would speak with somebody like Seth and arm them with the immigration law facts that we need, and I become often the quiet sort of person in the back saying, "Now we need this document, that document, that document." So it becomes a negotiation issue about please renew my visa so that I can stay here while we're negotiating.
Seth Nelson:
And let me tell you my first impression of this, Pete. Let's just say the wife comes to me and says, "My husband is here on a work visa and my kids were born here. He's legally in the country. My kids are citizens, they're here. I am connected to him and he wants a divorce." And now I'm like, "Okay, time to call an immigration lawyer," because she doesn't want to leave. Why? Because her kids are here.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
So that gives a lot of control to the husband in the divorce scenario because he can be basically saying, "Well, I'll sponsor you to do this, this or that, or you're close to becoming a citizen, so how can we work that out? But I'm going to extract from you what you're entitled to in divorce court."
Pete Wright:
Wait a minute, you're going to need to explain that.
Tahmina Watson:
So the green card process is very challenging, very long. It takes years. It depends on which country you're from, which category you're in to get a green card. Sometimes it can take over a decade, sometimes two, depending on where you're from. That word visa is your saving grace to staying in the U.S. for that time. Now the question becomes where in this process, because let's say an employer is filing for a green card and it's going to take let's say a decade, it's happening for the principal applicant, the husband in this situation, not the wife.
And so the question becomes when is this divorce happening in this entire process of the green card? And can they even survive it if the green card application isn't even there and it's just a visa? And just to back up a little bit, a work visa, you can have an H1B, an O Visa, an L Visa, an E Visa. There are different types of visas. They're not green cards. Those are visas for the now, for being here, and the green card application is a separate pathway that allows you to have a green card in the future, but the visa allows you to remain in the U.S. while that process is happening. And so when in that process is this divorce happening is one of the first questions to ask.
Pete Wright:
So if it's at the beginning of the divorce process, a process that now could take years, it sounds very much like that visa's not going to save the spouse.
Tahmina Watson:
Potentially not. And so that's why the negotiations that happen with lawyers like Seth for each party becomes very important about do you even divorce now? What can we have a separation agreement? That kind of thing.
Seth Nelson:
So how that plays out, Pete-
Pete Wright:
That's why you said extract something, and that's where I got confused.
Seth Nelson:
That's right. So the extract something is this, "I'll stay married to you so you can get your green card and eventually become a citizen in the United States, and that process might take 10 years. But we're going to sign a postnuptial agreement right now so we work out all of our finances in the event of divorce, and here's how it's going to work." And so now he has all the power. He can basically say, "I'm not going to give you much money at all," right? She's going to have to maybe go find a way to work in the U.S. and get employment from an employer that can sponsor her to get out from under him. And that can be very stressful. It can be almost under duress.
And so when I get these cases, one of the first things I say to our hypothetical the wife is, "Do you want to go back to your home country with the children?" Because then I can go to divorce court and say, "Judge, I want to relocate these kids back to," let's pick a random country," The UK." Maybe someone knows something about the UK on this show, I don't know. But back to the UK, and now he's got risk because now he's not going to see his kids as often as he wants to.
Pete Wright:
So that's like the reverse leverage?
Seth Nelson:
I've exactly put those kids directly in the middle of this divorce-
Pete Wright:
That seems mean.
Seth Nelson:
-Where you don't want them to be to get leverage on husband over finances, which is all the things on the show that we talk about you should not do. But what other choice as a lawyer do I have? And I picked a good country, the UK. What happens if it's not such a nice country and she doesn't want to take the children there?
Pete Wright:
Right. Okay, so Tahmina, can you help navigate that? Because Seth just laid out a case that sounds pretty awful, the whole reverse leverage thing, but it also sounds like a potential reasonable course of action when you're put in a rough spot by a not so savory husband.
Tahmina Watson:
The law is that if she doesn't have a visa, the wife cannot stay here.
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Tahmina Watson:
And it's as simple as that. So what will happen is from a visa standpoint, when the husband's application for visa renewal is up and they have to file it, at the same time, normally the spouse's application is also filed. These visas are typically for three years at a time, depending on the type of visa you have, but on average they're three years. And so the spouse would normally get three years as well. And it could be that you're negotiating to have the renewal now and figure out what happens within those three years and hopefully come to a conclusion.
But at the same time, the spouse, the wife in this situation would likely be talking to their own immigration lawyer to figure out how do I come out of this dependent visa? Can I become a student? Can I get my own work visa? And it depends on so many different things. To get a work visa, depending on work, you might need a degree, you definitely need an employer. Is it the right time in the year to apply for something? If you're going to be a student, can you afford to be a student? There are many variables that to some going home actually might seem like the practical thing to do, but not necessarily the best thing for their future. So it becomes very, very challenging and it tugs on your heart.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, for sure.
Tahmina Watson:
Especially the younger the children, the heavier it feels.
Pete Wright:
The way we're talking about this negotiation like, "Maybe we stay married just until you get your green card," look, everything I learned about immigration law, I learned from the Peter Weir film Green Card with Gerard Depardieu and Andie McDowell. And what I learned in that movie is that the U.S. government deeply frown on marriage for green card kind of activity. How is this negotiation even happening in public with attorneys?
Tahmina Watson:
Really good question. Seth, have you watched that movie?
Seth Nelson:
I did a long time ago. I don't remember the specifics of it, but I can imagine it because I think I've seen other stuff where they go and they're being interviewed and, "What's his favorite food?"
Pete Wright:
Toothpaste, it's always about the toothpaste.
Seth Nelson:
It's always about the toothpaste, right. Where did they meet? What did you do? What are your relatives? Stuff like that.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, so much of the story is memorizing each other's backstory, right?
Seth Nelson:
Right. And listen, I'm happily married. I couldn't answer those questions with my current wife.
Pete Wright:
In a million years. I mean I know she brushes her teeth.
Tahmina Watson:
Oh my gosh. I love that movie.
Seth Nelson:
Colgate, Crest, they both start with a C. I'm just not sure.
Tahmina Watson:
It's so true. I mean the questions that you get asked, that's a family based scenario by the way in that bucket. And I talk about that movie, I also talk about the movie Proposal where Sandra Bullock suddenly realizes she's going to [inaudible 00:18:41]. I didn't even know where that was.
Pete Wright:
Right, right.
Tahmina Watson:
That's exactly what happens. In the family-based scenario, the relationship gets scrutinized very heavily. Recently, there aren't interviews always, it's a very new thing that hasn't happened ever. But typically there is an interview that happens with immigration offices and the couple and they're basically asking about whether their lives are integrated both financially and in life. So they'll really scrutinize, does each other have each other's life insurance and are you sharing a bank account? And I will often tell my clients, "A bank account with two names and no transactions is really worse than not having one at all because now you are showing that you've done something for immigration."
Pete Wright:
We're so frugal though. I'm being really frugal, but you have no idea you all.
Seth Nelson:
We're so frugal, we don't even make deposits.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Tahmina Watson:
Oh my gosh. So they do look at that. Then if they're suspicious about things, then they will actually turn up at your doorsteps at 1:00 a.m. or 5:00 a.m. just like they did in that movie to see who's sleeping where, whose clothes are in which closet, that kind of thing. So that is one of the most scrutinized areas of law, immigration law. However, what I say to people is, "Do what is right in your life and let immigration follow," whether it is family law or employment based. Because if it is a sham marriage, A, I'm not representing you, even if there's a whiff of it. And B, you're going to get found out. I don't understand the people who say, "Well, there was a sham marriage." I'm like, "I don't know how that happens," because two examples.
One example is I was retained by a couple whose lawyer had passed away, so I was retained to go to the interview. And it was my very first interview where I wasn't sitting in the usual room that I'm used to with the immigration officers. They will have their own designated office, an office with a table, and they have their own little certificates or pictures.
Seth Nelson:
The spotlight that comes down.
Pete Wright:
That's exactly what I was thinking.
Tahmina Watson:
Yeah, they have that. They have that.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, okay.
Tahmina Watson:
But if it's a fraudulent officer who deals with fraudulent issues, they don't necessarily always take the people to their office first. So I was taken into this random office, which was very bland. It was just a random spare office that you sit in, and the clients were made to sit near the wall in two chairs and the officer was sitting behind a very blank empty desk and I was sitting on the side. And the officer started with our questions about where did you meet? How do you meet? These are the typical questions.
And then they really did a deep dive on, did you meet the other person's family? Have you met each other's family? And it turns out that the U.S. citizen spouse, their family lives maybe two hours away or an hour away from the marital home and the husband had never met the family. And the other thing that happens is there are background checks in these immigration cases, every case will have a background check, an FBI background check that has like 60 pages of who your family is, who your neighbors are, if they have criminal convictions and so forth.
And I never really understood the depth of those background checks until this case because what happened is the background checks will reveal if you are living in one address, but you're also registered at other addresses. And so this particular couple, the U.S. citizen spouse, the wife, was also registered at a different home in a different city where another man was also listed.
Pete Wright:
Oh, dear.
Tahmina Watson:
And I obviously don't know this backstory, I just know what the client told me. So the questions kept coming and coming and coming and I can see them sort of feeling uncomfortable answering the questions. It went on for a lot longer than the usual 20, 30 minute interview. It went for almost 90 minutes to two hours. And when we came out, it became very evident that she's listed at a second address with a different gentleman who she claimed is a friend that she goes and stays with once in a while. And this particular husband, very timid in his demeanor, it was very much telling his side of the story and the officer at the end said, "We will call you back later." So when the interview was done and we sat outside to debrief, she admitted that yes, she lives with this friend who's there, and I can't remember if she admitted that in the interview or not, but she definitely admitted that to me. And they basically withdrew the application in the end because it's not going to pass muster.
But the point of that story is that the background checks are essential. Nobody gets a green card with going around the fire 10 times, if you like. In a wedding, in an Indian wedding, they walk around the fire several times. The background checks are very much like that. There are different layers of it. So when people tell me, "Well, there was a marriage of convenience," I find it hard to believe how they get away with it.
Pete Wright:
Nothing about that story you just said sounded convenient at all.
Tahmina Watson:
Yes, very much so.
Pete Wright:
The other piece of it is this whole thing we're talking about, I sort of latched onto the do your thing and let immigration follow. Especially if you're here and your family is in crisis, I have to imagine that's not something that immigration officers haven't heard before, right? This is not a foreign thing. Relationships break up. That's something they'll find out.
Tahmina Watson:
Very much so. And I repeat that sentence several times a week, "Let your life happen and let immigration follow." Because which country you are born in, which visa you are applying for, how are these going to impact your green card application? Do you leave that job where your green card is pending to go to another job? There are so many different facets of these analyses that are you going to lose that dream job if you don't get it right now? You have to make a lot of very difficult life decisions. And yes, sometimes immigration does become an important factor in those decisions, but it shouldn't be the first one. It should be your life first, immigration second.
Seth Nelson:
Well, we talk about that in divorce. I tell people all the time, "Live your life, not your divorce. I'll give you homework, do your homework, but don't think about your homework all week. Just give me two hours on a Saturday and put it down and go spend time with your kids." So it's that same concept, and if you're playing it straight, then things tend to work out, even if that means you have to go back to your home country. Maybe there's a reason for that and you never know, right?
Tahmina Watson:
I agree.
Seth Nelson:
But it's a whole lot better than trying to gain the system and end up in a whole lot of hot water.
Tahmina Watson:
Exactly. I want to share a couple of other scenarios that feel relevant. Let's say there's that couple who are on the work visas and the spouse is abroad. They've gone to see their family members and suddenly these divorce papers were served while they were not here. They didn't know.
Pete Wright:
Oh, okay, served while the couple is apart, one of them is out of the country?
Tahmina Watson:
A couple apart, yes, that does happen. And now how are you coming back? The divorce hasn't finalized for whatever reason, but this person needs to get a visa stamp from the consulate to be able to enter the U.S., but that consulate will not give you the visa unless your spouse's valid visa and pay stubs are provided to show that everybody's in valid status for you to come back. And so there have been scenarios where people are actually stuck outside the country.
Pete Wright:
Because the divorce technically happened while they were gone.
Tahmina Watson:
Or the divorce proceedings began, or at least the lawyers are involved, something has triggered where negotiations need to happen. But these visas, as I mentioned, are three years at a time and you often will get a stamp on your visa to enter the U.S. If that stamp has expired while you are in the U.S., you can still continue to extend, but the moment you leave the country, you have to get a fresh new stamp to reenter. And that's when these problems could happen.
Seth Nelson:
Pete, we had a podcast about this where in Australia trying to get back to the UK and all over the world and couldn't get a visa to get out and you can go without your kid, but it was a nightmare.
Pete Wright:
Well, especially in a contentious divorce, right? The whole idea that one party-
Seth Nelson:
Come on Pete, is there any other kind?
Pete Wright:
There are so many easy divorces, your job is so easy, where one party holds so much power. We already talk, I mean every week we talk about this sort of power dynamic between divorcing couples, but this scenario seems to be dramatically out of balance in terms of just power between the two parties getting a divorce, when you can seriously keep them out of the country by not providing up-to-date pay stubs. And that seems like a manipulative thing to do that sounds like it happens.
Tahmina Watson:
It happens. I'm going to share a couple of other stories. I think as I'm talking, the scenarios are flooding back.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, they're flooding back. Right.
Tahmina Watson:
But let's say there's a couple, there's a foreign citizen outside the country and somebody in the U.S., they're already divorced let's say. And they have a custody agreement for the child, and that agreement is still in process, and in process that child is abroad. In the meantime, the person in the U.S. on a visa is remarried, let's say, and they might be married to a green card holder, U.S. citizen, doesn't matter what the status is. But now the foreign citizens who is here in the U.S. on a visa, that visa holder, now is possibly getting a green card. And when that person gets a green card, their family members can get a green card too. So this child who is part of this custody battle with foreign law involved outside the country now has to think about how do I preserve the green card for my child?
And so that person has to then go through going back and forth to the other country, figuring out with me immediately how do I preserve my child? How am I going to get this green card? If I get my green card today, can I stop my green card today so I don't get it so my child can get it at the same time? This was a heartbreaking scenario in which my client thought, "We're going through this thing, it's going to take six months, it'll be done." However, it took about seven years and might be exaggerating a little bit, but the entire process went on and on and on about how do we get the green card for you and your child who's not here?
So that's a complicated scenario in and of itself. And the family lawyer is not necessarily in the U.S. at that point. There's a lawyer abroad who now needs to understand the U.S. immigration laws, which makes it 10 times more difficult because at least a U.S. family lawyer will understand some of the issues I can share, but a foreign lawyer may not know that as much.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, and that leads them to potentially ... You don't necessarily need a divorce lawyer in both locations, foreign and local. But I've had those conversations because I've had conversations about where is it better to bring the divorce, in a foreign country or the U.S.? And it was someone planning for divorce so they were like, "Well, what do I do? I'm living here now," but he's willing to go back to this foreign country for six months. And I said, "Okay, well you got international law, you have the kids, you have this, you have that." And so we had these, what I found to be very interesting conversations about international law and what was the best way to do it. But also, the reverse is true. You can have it where they're getting divorced. I'm just going to use the UK as an example. Again in the UK, but there's property in the United States, and there's property in multiple locations in different states. So does the UK court divide that property? And if not, how do you divide it in the U.S. court state by state by state? And if you're getting divorced in a foreign country, what do they actually do?
So by way of example, I had a case many, many years ago, and I filed in Florida a petition for the division of marital assets not in connection with divorce. So how do you divide marital assets that are not in connection with divorce? I filed this. A friend of mine who's a very good attorney, she read the title of my petition and she said, "What the hell is this?" She got to the bottom and she saw my name and she goes, "Seth's a good lawyer. Let me look into this." And she looked back up and there was a statute that I quoted the statute that allows me to do this.
Now you guys should see Pete's face. How could you do this?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I don't understand what you're talking about right now because they're still married, right? You're just taking their stuff and splitting it?
Seth Nelson:
Nope.
Pete Wright:
Nope. No, they're divorced?
Seth Nelson:
The foreign jurisdiction said, "You're divorced."
Pete Wright:
Oh.
Seth Nelson:
"You're divorced. Congratulations. You're no longer married." They did not say anything about parenting plan. They didn't divide up assets. They didn't talk about alimony. And they had all this stuff.
Pete Wright:
So you're splitting stuff after their divorce in another country, even though technically ... Technically, their divorce is just sort of acknowledged here, even though were they married here originally?
Seth Nelson:
Nope. They were married in a foreign jurisdiction. They got divorced. So I had to bring a certified translated copy of the divorce that I attached to my petition to show to this court, "Judge, they're divorced. They are no longer married," but the court never distributed the marital assets.
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Seth Nelson:
Now here's the beauty of this. One party was here, the other wasn't. How do they get into the country if they want to defend themselves?
Pete Wright:
They can't, right?
Tahmina Watson:
It depends on which country they're from. If you're from the UK, you can waive your passport and get in for 90 days.
Seth Nelson:
You do that just like that. She just waived it.
Pete Wright:
I know. You just waive it.
Seth Nelson:
You don't have to hand it to the immigration officer.
Pete Wright:
I'm going to try it.
Seth Nelson:
You just waive it.
Pete Wright:
And just say, "Tahmina said it was okay. Bye."
Tahmina Watson:
Oh my gosh, you guys are so funny. It's called a visa waiver. There are several countries, or I forget, 32 countries that have that permission.
Pete Wright:
I mean it's in the name.
Tahmina Watson:
Visa waiver. Yes, exactly. I just put an action to it.
Pete Wright:
That's right.
Tahmina Watson:
The queen's waive, although you know, I miss the queen.
Pete Wright:
Oh yeah, so they can read it. It's a little slower.
Tahmina Watson:
But that's what makes it so fascinating. And I have cried with my clients, I have laughed with my clients. These are touching their lives to the core and it makes all the difference. One of the things I say is I am dealing with some of the most important things in people's lives, either their livelihoods or their loved ones, and each of these things can make them stressed, anxious, and how do you deal with these challenging issues while keeping your own calm? I mean you guys have talked about it on your podcast about self-care and keeping your energies and the boundaries. You have to do that for yourself, particularly when the cases are so challenging, so that your calmness can rub off on your client to make sure that they can get through their own day and have a sense of stability in crisis. And it makes everything very rewarding for sure.
Seth Nelson:
So I've got a question here, because I'm sure we have listeners out there that either know of someone that's dealing with this situation, they're dealing with this situation themselves. We have listeners across the country and across the globe, and we're not going to be able to answer all these specific questions, so here's the big question I have. From an immigration perspective, what should a potential client in a divorce case be asking their divorce lawyer to say, "Here's my problem."? I'm not saying this is your area of law, but what question should they be asking? And the flip side of that coin, what question should the divorce lawyer be asking the client to figure out where they need to get them to an immigration lawyer?
Tahmina Watson:
Even before they go to a lawyer, anybody who's ever had a visa will know that they went through a lot of hoops to get to that visa. They should have before they even go to the lawyer, find all of their documents, all of their documents and put them in a file. Sometimes it is the foreign citizen who has to leave the family because she's being beaten up black and blue, or there is abuse of some sort. In those situations, even her passport might be locked up by her husband. And I just want to be clear that it happens both ways. I've seen power struggles from the spouse who's a female, who's a U.S. citizen. I have seen it the other way around. So it can be either way, even though predominantly it's women who are the dependents.
The person should actually gather all of the documents that they can find. They should get anything that has two names and one address. Bank accounts, tax returns, life insurance, car insurance, find all of those documents to prove that this marriage is in good faith. You've been married for 10 years, suddenly you find out your spouse is cheating on you, you now have to make those pathways yourself before you go to an immigration lawyer. Get all the documents. If you have paperwork from your past applications, gather them all. And then go to a divorced lawyer.
Often there are prenups involved. The prenups are not drafted by people like me, they're drafted by people like Seth. And the prenup is not necessarily part of the immigration package, it's a negotiation that happened beforehand. Find that prenup to see what is in that or not so you have an understanding.
Seth Nelson:
I have a quick question on that prenup.
Tahmina Watson:
Yes?
Seth Nelson:
Foreign spouse, U.S. citizen, in the prenup upon divorce, the foreign spouse is going to get X number of dollars. If they can show that they have so much in liquid assets, does that then potentially help them get a visa to stay here to get employment because they can show, "I can support myself"?
Tahmina Watson:
Very good question. The visas are very individualized and not necessary dependent on that financial support that was provided. I want to mention one other thing at the end of this, but if you are trying to come out on your own visa, you now have to start from scratch to see from which visa will work for you. And often it's employment-based because family-based is only when somebody's sponsoring you that has an immediate relationship with you.
So now you've gone to your divorce lawyer, you're going to say, "I want to get divorced. What do I do?" The divorce lawyer first has to ask questions back, and those questions will be, "What is your visa status? How long were you married? If you are on a temporary work visa, when does that expire?" If it expires tomorrow or next month, there may not be enough time to negotiate. But if it expires in three years, you know you have some time to play with. "Are there any children involved? Do you have your own funds? Are you able to work?" Some work visas allow the spouse to work, other work visas do not where they're wholly and 100% dependent on the financial support. So the divorce lawyer has to ask all of these questions, and there might be even more that I'm not aware of. Seth would probably know better than me.
Seth Nelson:
No, these are all good things for our listeners because I was just really saying to the listener, "Listen, get a list of questions. Get your documents together, go to your divorce lawyer and then make sure that they're working with an immigration lawyer."
Tahmina Watson:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
And I have a few immigration lawyers around town and some of them actually practice family law, which can be very helpful. And some people say, "Well, why would you refer a case to another lawyer that does family law?" I'm like, "Because if they can talk to one lawyer at a time and not have to deal with two, it's going to be less money for them. And I think that's going to help them in the long run." And this lawyer that I'm thinking of is very good in both areas of practice, which is hard to do. It's hard to be good in one area.
Tahmina Watson:
I agree, I agree. And I have a very dear friend who does both as well. And in some of these cases I just say, "Go to her. She's a much better fit than me because she can take care of all of it." The other scenario that happens, talking about that work visa green card, sometimes when you get a green card through your spouse, the first green card is only valid for two years, and if you do not renew that, you are going to be illegal, undocumented. And in that case, I will always send my clients to this particular friend. But again, it comes back to what stage are you in your immigration journey, and the practical roadmap will be defined by that.
Pete Wright:
Well, I'll tell you, I made fun of Seth at the beginning of the show and I regret that. I hope that listeners hear just how absolutely incredible this area of law is and how heartbreaking it can be, and also just how many loose ends we may have left from this conversation just because it is so complicated. Thank you so, so much Tahmina for being here and helping to talk us through this. But you have your first book, you have a second book coming. Tell us a little bit about your books and where people can learn more about them.
Tahmina Watson:
Oh, well, thank you so much. Yes. Well, I have three books, technically four. One of them had a second edition.
Seth Nelson:
The fourth one hasn't gotten its visa yet though, Pete, so it's still, we'll see, it's in process.
Pete Wright:
It's at the border. It just gets waiving itself at the border.
Tahmina Watson:
There we go, at the airport and everywhere. So this book is a visa guide and it's a very simple to read, easy to understand visa guide and it's called U.S. Visa Guide for Startups & Founders. But honestly, it's a visa guide for anybody.
Seth Nelson:
Well, we'll put that in the show notes for sure.
Tahmina Watson:
Yes, thank you. So let's say that person who's on a dependent visa who now needs to get off that visa and do something else for herself or himself, this book will give all of the visa categories that they can consider. And I wrote it because I finally resigned myself to the fact we will not see immigration reform and we will not see a startup-
Seth Nelson:
Wait a minute, you think the U.S. Congress can't get something done? Come on.
Tahmina Watson:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
Did you know that that would be a laugh line? You probably did.
Seth Nelson:
You chose to immigrate to this country?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Tahmina Watson:
My husband is an incredible human being. I would follow him anywhere.
Seth Nelson:
He's so incredible, you came to the U.S. with a non-functioning government. That guy's awesome.
Tahmina Watson:
I will tell you that yes, particularly what happened last week, you are sort of watching television thinking, "Is this a movie or not?" But I will say the American people are good people. This country is an amazing country. Dreams do come true here. And so my new philosophy is let's just focus on the individual, make better individuals, and make them happy and joyful. Let them figure out what is that positive energy, what brings them wellness? I think if you can now, that's my philosophy at the moment, if you can focus on the individual, then we can collectively be a better country.
I became a U.S. citizen and I love this country. I really do. And people who come to me in between different sentences, they'll say, "Well, that's my dream." And I'll be like, "Oh my gosh, they said those magic words. I have to now do everything I can to make their American dream come true."
Seth Nelson:
I get that same thing. My dream is to get divorced and I'm like, "I can make that happen. You might not ever see your children again. You might be flat broke, but I will make that dream come true."
Pete Wright:
I will make that happen. Tahmina, you're aspirational. Thank you so much for hanging out with us. You got to come here and just shed that energy on us old cynics. This is really, really great. We so appreciate your time.
Tahmina Watson:
Well, I would love to would to. I know Florida has a lot of beautiful birds. I'm a bird photographer in my spare time and I'm looking for opportunities to see new birds all the time. So if I make it out there, I'll let you know.
Pete Wright:
Excellent. Well, thank you so much for hanging out and we are going to turn to listener questions. We're going to let you go, but you're amazing. And one of the things I want to say is anybody who has a question about immigration law and you want to send it to Tahmina, send it to us. We'll send it to Tahmina, see if she's too busy to answer us.
Tahmina Watson:
That's amazing.
Pete Wright:
Howtosplitatoaster.com, submit a question, and we'll get it answered. Tahmina Watson, thanks so much for hanging out.
Tahmina Watson:
Thank you so much for having me. It's been an absolute delight. Take care.
Pete Wright:
Seth, are you ready for the question? I've got a question.
Seth Nelson:
I'm ready.
Pete Wright:
This question comes from Rich. A big shout-out from Pensacola. Shout out Pensacola.
Seth Nelson:
Whoa, in my home state here.
Pete Wright:
Home state. "I just listened to the cult episode and it was really, really interesting. The problem that I have personally is that I think I might be going through the same thing, but I don't know how to call an attorney and ask him how to figure out if my wife is in a cult. Technically they call themselves a social club, but listening to that episode made me think that it fits every single other measure that your guest talked about. If someone were to call you Seth and say, 'I think I'm in a cult,' what would the next step be? Is there any sort of discernment process that you would take on to help? Bottom line is that I want a divorce, but this social club has an out-sized influence on my marriage and so far it feels like I can't have a conversation with my wife without knowing that I'm having a conversation with the whole organization. I probably just need to stop trying to have a conversation with anyone and call an attorney. It just feels like I should have more control in the conversation with my so-called partner than I have right now, and I am heartbroken." Rich, I'm so sorry. Seth, what do you think?
Seth Nelson:
Rich answered his own question in the question. As you were reading it and he was saying that there's this out-sized influence in my marriage where I can't have a conversation with my wife without feeling like I'm having it with the whole organization, I'm thinking it takes two people to get married, but only one to get divorced.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
You are actually not required to talk to your spouse during the divorce process. If you have children, you're going to have to communicate about them. So absolutely, I would call a lawyer and if someone called me and said, "I think I'm in a cult," first off, I would try to have an in-person consultation because I don't know who's listening, I don't know what's going on with the zoom, I don't know who's on the phone. In person consultation. I would probably insist on that if possible, and I would go through and say in a half hour or 20 minutes, and I want to give direction to this conversation because it can go all different directions as we heard in our episode.
So I would say, "Take me through a typical Saturday, take me through a typical Sunday, take me through a Monday," because that is going to give some clarity to the direction of the conversation to see what happens when you're being influenced. And then I might let them just riff it, tell me their story for another 10 minutes, or maybe start with that because I want to get a sense of what's happening from their perception. And then I'm going to say, "Okay, let's break this down a little bit. Here are my concerns, but then here's how the divorce process works."
And you might get a lot of what I call ghost people, people that are around but you don't see them from a lawyer's perspective, that are going to put influences on you, on your wife, on the relationship, but ultimately they are not the decision makers. You and your wife are a decision maker when it comes to a settlement and if they're influencing her, remember you're only going to sign that settlement if that works for you. It's not that it's wonderful and great, can I live with this settlement? So you have agency in that, and if the answer is that you guys can't come to agreement, we have courts that are open with judges that make decisions and we go from there. I would also talk about the finances because a lot of cults control your finances, so I'd be looking at that.
Pete Wright:
Well, I think that's a really good question because what strikes me is that I understand the out-sized influence of the organization on the relationship. It could be that your spouse is really in a codependent relationship with this organization, right? It may not be a cult. They may not want to be a cult, but cult is a heavy word as we heard from Peter Young, and that was a really fascinating episode. But I think what you just said makes so much sense to me. Call the lawyer first. Rich, you already answered it. Let's start that process and hear them out.
Seth Nelson:
And we have shows about what you want to do in the initial consultation.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Look at your finances. Are your names on everything? Is your name on it? Do you have other people that are in the "social club"?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
And their names are on your finances or you see transfers to them, those are big signs of red flags. The quicker you deal with this, the better. This is not fine wine. It's not going to get better with age. It's only going to get worse.
Pete Wright:
There you go. Rich, thank you so much for reaching out. So sorry that you're going through this and I hope that at least some of the guidance will help put you on the right path to get this resolved. Thank you everybody. As we said, howtosplitatoaster.com, you can jump in and ask a question, submit a question to Seth. We've got a couple in the queue here. I'm very excited. We've got a question per episode. They just keep coming in, Seth, you're on fire is the truth. You're on fire.
Seth Nelson:
Well, they don't know if my answers are right, Pete. They got to go talk to a lawyer in their jurisdiction, so it's all good.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, it's all good. We're all safe here. Thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. It's been a real treat this week. On behalf of Tahmina Watson and Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney, I'm Pete Wright. We'll see you right back here next week on How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
How to Split A Toaster is part of the TruStory FM Podcast Network, produced by Andy Nelson, music by T Bless & The Professionals and DB Studios. Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce & Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce & Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
